Author Topic: Mining and Blacksmith  (Read 2533 times)

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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Mining and Blacksmith
« on: April 11, 2017, 02:01:07 pm »
First off, I have NOT updated the server with this content. I am still working it out.
Just looking for some feedback.

I have added 10 ores to mining and kinda removed the old ones. I reserved room to add 5 more some day.
Copper, silver, gold, zircon and probably mag won't have weapon/armors made from them.

Ore list: Tin, bronze, cobalt, iron, ebony, cinnabar, titanium, hessite, tungsten, mithril.

Basically the skill goes up 50 per ore. That includes mining, smithing, repair, arming, etc.

Usage Steps:
- Mine an ore
- use ore (or any ore item) on hot pit (or furnaces when I add them) to get an ingot
- use ingot on pit/furnace to heat it
- use hammer on heated ingot to make an item (weapon, armor, tool, etc)
- use hammer on weapon/armor to repair

Skill Req:
- Tin 5 - 50
- Bronze 50 - 100
- Cobalt 100 - 150
...
- Hessite 350 - 400
- Tungsten 400 - 450
- Mithril 450 - 500

What will happen to copper, silver and gold?
- used in jewelry making and thinking about gilding weapons/armor for elemental/special effects

May still have Zircon weapons but I am thinking they will work like old Ultima glass weapons, a one hit, mega damage weapon. Some kinda elemental/magic stored in them. Bad for PK so probably only allow on monsters. The damage wouldn't be too high, maybe just 100 - 200.

Magnetite armor will still have since it good magic/elemental protection but poor physical protection. My old idea was to use mag for elemental weapons and the oils but there isn't any skill range there so not sure yet.
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Re: Mining and Blacksmith
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2017, 04:32:46 pm »
well since you're asking...

first off you seem to be going for some type of realism by removing metals that shouldn't be usable as weapons, but you went too far and not far enough at the same time.  bronze shouldn't be minable!  you have tin and copper, use them to make bronze.  cinnabar(mercury compound in solid form instead of liquid) isn't good for weapons either since it would either have to be made into mercury(liquid at room temp) or remain in its brittle rock like form(think pencil lead).  ebony is wood, I'm ok with wooden weapons/items, but shouldn't be minable.  magnetite is iron, you already have iron.  hessite is silver, you already have silver.  zircon isn't glass, and shouldn't break easily, but I like the idea of glass like weapons.  maybe add something like obsidian for them, and make a whole new genre of weapons like the aztec sword(the wooden 1 with obsidian shards inlaid).  these could add bleeding damage(I've asked about bleeding damage somewhere before I think) but do low damage overall or no damage at all against decent armor.

next up I don't like weapons going metal by metal.  this may just be me, but for the most part RPGWO has always had a medieval fantasy setting.  a time period mostly remembered for knights and the like...and you'd never see a knight riding around in tin armor.  can we instead have different types of iron?  some softer irons would be fine for most tools, and harder irons->steels for weapons and armor...I understand adding fantasy metals like mythril but for the most part can we not have weird metals for things(which of course ties back in to what I think you were getting at)?

lastly why all the hammering?  bring back the anvil  :P  but seriously, you're going to have someone dropping a whole huge stack of hot metal on the ground and hammering it instead of them being limited to how many they can carry and use on an anvil.  also can you bring back tool parts?  right now carpentry is useless since its main purpose was always just making handles.  also can we take that a step farther, instead of just making an item outright can we make different parts and add them together?  ie: making an armor you'd start with leather straps on a metal plate/scales then add more leather/metal as the armor progresses...this could also work with your gilding idea since you'd be able to add different things at different steps to get different items.  this would also allow someone to upgrade an item they already have by adding more onto it, ie: someone with a light cuirass could add pauldrons or spaulders to get a medium type armor.

just my opinion on some stuff, others may want/like it other ways so...
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline royan

Re: Mining and Blacksmith
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2017, 05:03:42 am »
Overall I like.

As Greatest said bronze should not be mineable. It is made from copper and tin. Same way we could have steel makable from iron and something. Didn't we ahev that already in the past btw? Also maybe more of these "improved" materials.

For usage I prefer to be able to make the process a bit "automatic" without making it too macro friendly. I hate to click ore, click crucible, click pit, click this click that ... one item made. Trade skills are a pain in the ass like that. I prefer to have a stack, run that stack through a use by "repeat last use", then move on to the next step. With several steps suggested here I think it will work fine. The last step could be abused but you'd need to get there first. Collect all the ores, heat them into ingots and then heat them again and place them on ground.   

Also agree with greatest on the upgrading stuff or rather creating parts that are put togheter to final product. Make a basic leather armor, make plates, put them togheter for plated leather armor. Smith makes shovelhead, carpenter makes handle and then they are put togheter.

Finally, a tiny bit off topic but this cant be said often enough, make sure smithing is the primary mean of getting weapons and tools. NOT monster drops. Have monsters drop stuff that can be turned into weapons. But not finished weapons and certinly not enchanted ones. 

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Re: Mining and Blacksmith
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2017, 02:58:27 am »
...also can you bring back tool parts?  right now carpentry is useless since its main purpose was always just making handles.  also can we take that a step farther, instead of just making an item outright can we make different parts and add them together?  ie: making an armor you'd start with leather straps on a metal plate/scales then add more leather/metal as the armor progresses...this could also work with your gilding idea since you'd be able to add different things at different steps to get different items.  this would also allow someone to upgrade an item they already have by adding more onto it, ie: someone with a light cuirass could add pauldrons or spaulders to get a medium type armor.
Have monsters drop stuff that can be turned into weapons. But not finished weapons and certinly not enchanted ones. 
In terms of gilding weapons and/or armor, I recall you saying something about the possibility of adding more jewelry effects. It'd be neat to maybe also just have a way to "improve" a bonus/effect on an item. Like say you have a shield that has some immunity to say... slash and maybe you gild it with gold AND ruby it increases/grants fire resistance.
Possibly also maybe make it so that if a weapon has a skill bonus on it, you can improve said bonus, without changing the skill, by X number by gilding it.
This would make tradeskilling to making armor not only more interactive and customizable but potentially have more value overall in the game's economy for higher and mid level things. And this can be supported even more so by allowing higher level players to obtain materials from the stronger mobs, etc to then have a blacksmith or such then use said to craft as said by Royan.


Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Mining and Blacksmith
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2017, 02:00:46 pm »
My goal is to have a tiered metal system, lower to higher. The names don't matter. I use our Earth names because they are familiar but ... this isn't our Earth. So I can make up new names if you want.

Putting parts together to make different items is a lot of work and I think some significant code changes unless you code the .ini for every possible combo. It could be a long term goal. Not sure.
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Re: Mining and Blacksmith
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2017, 09:26:11 pm »
My goal is to have a tiered metal system, lower to higher. The names don't matter. I use our Earth names because they are familiar but ... this isn't our Earth. So I can make up new names if you want.
I've always been against tiers of metals, so if thats what you want I guess my thoughts on it don't really matter...

Quote
Putting parts together to make different items is a lot of work and I think some significant code changes unless you code the .ini for every possible combo. It could be a long term goal. Not sure.
it wouldn't be too different from most other usages.  think of the steps in making jerky(on most servers), you gather meat, you salt it, you cut it, you use it on the oven...several steps several tools, multiple materials.  right now most armor making is heating ore using it on an anvil, shouldn't armor be more complex than jerky?  different materials, different tools, more steps...

just for example, instead of:
Code: [Select]
Itemuse
Itemtool=Hot Iron Sheet
Itemfocus=Anvil
SuccessTool=Iron leggings Chain
Skill=BlackSmith
SkillMin=140
SkillMax=190
SkillXPSuccess=140
SkillXPFailure=10
SuccessMsg=You make Chain Armor.
FailedMsg=You fail to make Chain Armor.
Ownland
PreserveData
or
Code: [Select]
Itemuse
ItemTool=Melted Iron Filled Crucible
ItemFocus=Leggings Mold
SuccessTool=Empty Crucible
SuccessItem1=Iron Leggings Chain
Skill=BlackSmith
SkillMin=140
SkillMax=190
SkillXPSuccess=165
SkillXPFailure=10
SuccessMsg=You make some armor.
FailedMsg=You fail to make some armor.
Ownland
how about:
Code: [Select]
Itemuse
Itemtool=Hammer
ItemFocus=Hot Iron Rod
SuccessFocus=Iron Ringlets
SuccessItem1=Iron Ringlets
SuccessItemQty1=4
Skill=BlackSmith
SkillMin=150
SkillMax=200
SkillXPSuccess=150
SkillXPFailure=30
SuccessMsg=You make ringlets.
FailedMsg=You fail to make ringlets.

Code: [Select]
Itemuse
Itemtool=Iron Ringlets
ItemFocus=Iron Ringlets
SuccessFocus=Iron Chain
Skill=BlackSmith
SkillMin=150
SkillMax=200
SkillXPSuccess=150
SkillXPFailure=30
SuccessMsg=You make a chain.
FailedMsg=You fail to make a chain.

Code: [Select]
Itemuse
Itemtool=Iron Chain
ItemFocus=Iron Chain
SuccessFocus=Iron Leggings Chain
Skill=BlackSmith
SkillMin=150
SkillMax=200
SkillXPSuccess=150
SkillXPFailure=30
SuccessMsg=You make an armor.
FailedMsg=You fail to make an armor.

(mostly copy and paste so xp in that may need balancing)
but that is generally what I'm talking about when I say more steps and an example of upgrading would be

Code: [Select]
Itemuse
Itemtool=Iron Disks
ItemFocus=Iron Chain Leggings
SuccessFocus=Plated Iron Chain Leggings
Skill=BlackSmith
SkillMin=150
SkillMax=200
SkillXPSuccess=150
SkillXPFailure=30
SuccessMsg=You upgrade an armor.
FailedMsg=You fail to upgrade an armor
PreserveData.
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Roarion

Re: Mining and Blacksmith
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2017, 10:11:31 am »
My goal is to have a tiered metal system, lower to higher. The names don't matter. I use our Earth names because they are familiar but ... this isn't our Earth. So I can make up new names if you want.
I've always been against tiers of metals, so if thats what you want I guess my thoughts on it don't really matter...

Quote
Putting parts together to make different items is a lot of work and I think some significant code changes unless you code the .ini for every possible combo. It could be a long term goal. Not sure.
it wouldn't be too different from most other usages.  think of the steps in making jerky(on most servers), you gather meat, you salt it, you cut it, you use it on the oven...several steps several tools, multiple materials.  right now most armor making is heating ore using it on an anvil, shouldn't armor be more complex than jerky?  different materials, different tools, more steps...

You're looking at it the wrong way - jerky is only 1 item and a very simple item at that. Weapons/armours are usually around 15 different items with many sets and dynamic stats. Maintaining this in the current ini code is a total pain not even mentioning images, wear images, and animations. The only way this setup can really work and be convenient is to change the fundamental way weapon/armour stats/ini code is put together.

The solution obviously is some sort of auto determining stats based on the ores mixed and somehow map them to the right images/wear/animations, but it also brings the problem of balancing things since you have to add overrides for certain weapons to balance them properly.

I think this is a much harder problem then you're expecting and would take a lot of planning / reimplementation of the code to setup properly.

If you forget about mixing all the ores dynamically, a possible work around is to just use tiers of ore and make making certain items a more involved process. You make one "bronze" armour set ini code with all the usages you can think of, then copy and paste it 15 times.
Asylum - lvl 33 Thrower
Pyramid - lvl 40 Scythe
Dementia - lvl 69 Spear
Nexus V2 - lvl 61 Stealth
Rebirth - lvl 72 Bow
Ganymede - lvl 56 Mage
Hex - lvl 1000 Admin
Future - lvl 1000 Admin
Retired - Unless V6 pulls a miracle

Offline Roarion

Re: Mining and Blacksmith
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2017, 10:50:40 am »
...also can you bring back tool parts?  right now carpentry is useless since its main purpose was always just making handles.  also can we take that a step farther, instead of just making an item outright can we make different parts and add them together?  ie: making an armor you'd start with leather straps on a metal plate/scales then add more leather/metal as the armor progresses...this could also work with your gilding idea since you'd be able to add different things at different steps to get different items.  this would also allow someone to upgrade an item they already have by adding more onto it, ie: someone with a light cuirass could add pauldrons or spaulders to get a medium type armor.
Have monsters drop stuff that can be turned into weapons. But not finished weapons and certinly not enchanted ones. 
In terms of gilding weapons and/or armor, I recall you saying something about the possibility of adding more jewelry effects. It'd be neat to maybe also just have a way to "improve" a bonus/effect on an item. Like say you have a shield that has some immunity to say... slash and maybe you gild it with gold AND ruby it increases/grants fire resistance.
Possibly also maybe make it so that if a weapon has a skill bonus on it, you can improve said bonus, without changing the skill, by X number by gilding it.
This would make tradeskilling to making armor not only more interactive and customizable but potentially have more value overall in the game's economy for higher and mid level things. And this can be supported even more so by allowing higher level players to obtain materials from the stronger mobs, etc to then have a blacksmith or such then use said to craft as said by Royan.



Bit of derailing the thread here - I'm not sure if V3 is supposed to be an improvement of V2 or if the core ideas of the game are changing. I'm obviously of the personal opinion that if V3 is based on V2 it should first fix V2s problems and then people can throw out whatever general weird ideas they have. It sounds like in Micky's post he making ini code based off people's ideas and not actually fixing the problems, what's the point?

In the context of tommy's post it's just way too much to follow since he doesn't state what is wrong with V2 and how it should be working in V3...

Hacky work around in v2-
In V2 it's possible to add magical effects to armour/weapons (such as stamina renewal). The problem with it is that it's a total hack to get to it work where you HAVE to use to treasure ini to get the item with those effects meaning you MUST kill a monster to get an item like that. It has been worked around in the past like on Hex the warfan items work where they summon a lvl 1 monster that when killed gives a warfan item with the magical effect.

Bug -
The problem with this is that even if you set the treasure ini to 100% drop rate sometimes the item won't drop. It would be great if this bug was fixed, and if it was possible to just directly apply a magical effect to an item via ini code.

Bug -
Also when magical effects are set on items/weapons they can get weird and revert to "number of uses left" and have detrimental effects on the item, this should be fixed also.

Improvement -
It would be nice if it was possible to grant other magical effects to weapons, such as them stacking with your existing boosts instead of just overriding them (which would make them actually useful and desired).

This part of his post is an entirely different bug which could have its own post of dopigentation but i'm not 100% sure if that's what he's referencing -
Possibly also maybe make it so that if a weapon has a skill bonus on it, you can improve said bonus, without changing the skill.

The rest of it's mostly worthless you can already do that stuff in V2 with more ini code / items.
Asylum - lvl 33 Thrower
Pyramid - lvl 40 Scythe
Dementia - lvl 69 Spear
Nexus V2 - lvl 61 Stealth
Rebirth - lvl 72 Bow
Ganymede - lvl 56 Mage
Hex - lvl 1000 Admin
Future - lvl 1000 Admin
Retired - Unless V6 pulls a miracle

Offline Greatest

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Re: Mining and Blacksmith
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2017, 08:39:08 pm »
My goal is to have a tiered metal system, lower to higher. The names don't matter. I use our Earth names because they are familiar but ... this isn't our Earth. So I can make up new names if you want.
I've always been against tiers of metals, so if thats what you want I guess my thoughts on it don't really matter...

Quote
Putting parts together to make different items is a lot of work and I think some significant code changes unless you code the .ini for every possible combo. It could be a long term goal. Not sure.
it wouldn't be too different from most other usages.  think of the steps in making jerky(on most servers), you gather meat, you salt it, you cut it, you use it on the oven...several steps several tools, multiple materials.  right now most armor making is heating ore using it on an anvil, shouldn't armor be more complex than jerky?  different materials, different tools, more steps...

You're looking at it the wrong way - jerky is only 1 item and a very simple item at that. Weapons/armours are usually around 15 different items with many sets and dynamic stats. Maintaining this in the current ini code is a total pain not even mentioning images, wear images, and animations. The only way this setup can really work and be convenient is to change the fundamental way weapon/armour stats/ini code is put together.

The solution obviously is some sort of auto determining stats based on the ores mixed and somehow map them to the right images/wear/animations, but it also brings the problem of balancing things since you have to add overrides for certain weapons to balance them properly.

I think this is a much harder problem then you're expecting and would take a lot of planning / reimplementation of the code to setup properly.

If you forget about mixing all the ores dynamically, a possible work around is to just use tiers of ore and make making certain items a more involved process. You make one "bronze" armour set ini code with all the usages you can think of, then copy and paste it 15 times.
either you misunderstood me, or you're missing what Mickey said about tiered metals being what he was using.  so basicly that bold part...which is what I posted with an example.

as to your 2nd post, yea he seems to only be working on ini files now(according to his current task...would be nice if he worked more on code stuff and bug fixes, but this has been said already.
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Greatest

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Re: Mining and Blacksmith
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2017, 09:31:54 pm »
@Mickey I just found a huge problem with the way your tiered metal system will work now.  iron is still the main metal used for most tools(true you've added other metal versions of picks but they don't work for most stuff).  iron is now a higher tier metal, so we have to work up to that higher tier before we can make some basic tools(such as fire starters/stopper).  I did find a slight work around in game for this but I don't think it is something you had intended, making an anvil from granite(needs a hammer and chisel made from iron) you can load it into a crucible and get an iron loaded crucible(no difference between stone and iron anvils).
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 09:36:40 pm by Greatest »
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Greatest

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Re: Mining and Blacksmith
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2017, 12:23:21 am »
also did you remove copper ore?  can't play in the dark...
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Mining and Blacksmith
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2017, 11:55:01 am »
I haven't redone all the tools and non-weapons yet. Will get those in next.
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Re: Mining and Blacksmith
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2017, 12:57:28 am »
any chance you can add some npc that gives certain items in trade for now since so many things can't be tested?  also there are still a lot of monsters that have an invisible image, and of the few that don't some turn invisible if you tame them...so that might be a coding issue instead of an ini thing :-\
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

 

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