Author Topic: Skill System  (Read 7074 times)

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Offline Roarion

Re: Skill System
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2015, 10:36:25 pm »
Now with the Mineral Lore of max 30 (or any level) it applies to all usages of children skills.

- Ore Refining skill would effectively be 30 and you could refine low level ores even though you never see the Ore Refining skill.

I think we need Blacksmith after Mineral Lore then the other smiths.

- Blacksmith skill would be 30 and you could do low level usage

OK, I think I am getting it now. Might need a beer to help.

Not really sure what I think of that whole skill system thats been listed thus far, it just seems like a lot of capped skills you will be sitting on.

Just to throw an idea out if you are changing it from v2, maybe you have an option to upgrade a skill to multiple options, or the skill just gets better.

You can train mining at lvl 1. Lvl 250 mining and the skill can be morphed into mining 2 ores. Lvl 500 mining and you can mine 50% faster, etc.

You can train xbow at lvl 1. Lvl 500 xbow skill and you can change Xbow into Sniper (longer range offscreen) or Dual Bolt (fires two attacks instantly, takes up two bolts).

I think it might be over complicating things, but if you aren't sticking with normal v2 stuff then that's my take on it. I just find it confusing that to train sword I have to have a Basic Melee skill to lvl 30, Blade to lvl 60, and then finally get the sword skill when it seems like the new skill should replace the old one.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2015, 11:56:13 pm »
I wasn't imagining a skill level requirement for unlocking nodes. Figured .. as long as you have the skill points to spend, you can unlock any attached skill.

finally get the sword skill when it seems like the new skill should replace the old one.

Yeah, I gave that example in one of my earlier posts, having a more specific skill replace the more generic one. It kinda makes sense and it kinda doesn't. You learn how to use swords expertly and at the same time forget how to wield a basic club? Idk. I see what you mean but idk.


For me, at the base of it, having required skills makes logical sense. It doesn't have to be as complicated as I've been making these things, but it's easier to get everything all out on the board and refine it from there.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2015, 05:05:52 am »
well I'm with Mongo on this, I wasn't thinking of a specific level of a skill needed to train a next tier skill, just needing that skill.  for example you'd have to know how to light a fire(wilderness survival?) before you can start cooking, but would you really need that skill at a high level?

I see the tree more as a "you have to know this before you can learn that" than as a "must level this up before you can learn that" type thing.  like you only have to have a driver's license to deliver pizza, not be an experienced racecar driver.  with the slow progression of skills in V5, and you wanting to keep that system, needing to get each skill to a certain level before you can learn the next skill means you'd never have a person actually able to get a higher tier skill(for example my level 11 full crafter char on the V5 server had mining at ~35).

also I don't like the idea of each lower tier skill having caps.  if you have a skill you should be able to use it as long as you have it.  using your mineral lore example: without ML you shouldn't be able to know what an ore is, just see each as "stone" with mineral lore you can tell what type of ore it is(I also like the idea of each starter tier being trained by default).  once you understand what an ore is you can train mining, and gather as many as you want.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2015, 11:51:27 am »
Here is my view of how it would work:

- Mineral Lore of 10
 - can mine tin (the lowest ore) requires 10 ML
- player gets ML to 20 then is able to train Mining for 2 skill points
- Mining starts at 20
- mining and mineral lore get same XP??? Maybe just mining.
- Cobalt ore requires 30 Mining

Craaap.. I am all confused now.


Honestly, I wouldn't think you could mine at ALL without "Mining". I think it would be best to keep it simple like that. As I said in the original posts, I don't really know what "Mineral Lore" would give you, but it makes for a good transition to the other skills.

I imagine it like, spend 2 points on Mineral Lore (or maybe it ends up being trained by default, idk) then another 6 on Mining. The Mining at this point would function just like V2, only difference is there was a skill you needed to get beforehand (unless it's trained by default in which case it's exactly like V2).

Doesn't need to be overcomplicated.





What does bother me is, lets say you go through to get "Sword". So you get Basic Melee, Blade, Sword. Now you hit something with a sword. It is a melee weapon, it is a blade and it is a sword.. so you get XP in all 3 skills? That is messy. Somehow this needs to be re-thought or re-worked.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 11:56:45 am by Mongo »
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2015, 12:53:24 pm »
Removed the very specific weapon types, added some new magic types (just some basic thoughts at the moment. More combinations will need to be added). Also added a "Steps" to each node to show how many total nodes you need to get to that spot. Found Jeweler took 6 steps to get to which is the most of any node. It kinda makes sense though since jewelry is powerful. Idk.

There's a couple others at 5 but the average is 3.


So going on from my previous post, the Basic/Type/Specific weapon nodes bug me. The only way I can see this working is if there are three distinct types of weapons.

Weapon: Club
Skill Required: Basic Melee
Skill: 10

Weapon: Short Sword
Skill Required: Blade
Skill: 10

Weapon: Greatsword
Skill Required: Sword
Skill: 10

Ok, so take these three weapons. Each one requires level 10 in their respective skills. Each weapon is specific to their skill, so when you try to equip "Short Sword", it doesn't matter if you have 100 levels in "Sword".. it only matters if you have at least 10 in "Blade".

The biggest problem with separating everything out like this is the sheer number of weapons that would need to be created to facilitate this system. You'd need an entire set of weapons for each of 14 categories. What encompasses a "set" for each category is up for debate as you probably wouldn't need any mid-high level "Basic" weapons or any high level weapons of a generic type (Blade, Pole, etc). Still, it's a lot of weapons to make.

One thing that could help this system is the stuff that BOOSTS these skills. So in V2, I think "Sword" was based on STRENGTH and DEXTERITY. What if here, we said "Sword" was based on STRENGTH, DEXTERITY, and BLADE. "Blade" could be based on STRENGTH, DEXTERITY and BASIC MELEE. So .. leveling up a pre-requisite skill isn't a waste of points since it helps more advanced skills.





The alternative is to change the way this works entirely, will need to come up with something new.


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Offline Greatest

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2015, 03:50:29 pm »
The biggest problem with separating everything out like this is the sheer number of weapons that would need to be created to facilitate this system. You'd need an entire set of weapons for each of 14 categories. What encompasses a "set" for each category is up for debate as you probably wouldn't need any mid-high level "Basic" weapons or any high level weapons of a generic type (Blade, Pole, etc). Still, it's a lot of weapons to make.
or basic melee could just be 1 of 2 basic weapons.  if you could get high level weapons in basic melee there would be no point having a better skill.  I think basic melee would be more like a skill used by crafters to kill farm animals...so maybe a sharp stick(pokey/piercing damage) and a stone(smashy/blunt damage) for basic melee.  moving on to blade you could have a few simple blades that would normally function as tools(kitchen knife, lumberjack's axe, machete) and have actual weapons come from the weapon skills.
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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Skill System
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2015, 06:09:47 pm »
I changed the V6 skill code to be like V1/V2. Still need to code Train/Untrain button on the client though.
One difference from V1/V2 is un-trained skills are usable and the value is based on Attributes. You can't earn XP and level it and it doesn't show up on the client skill list. This allows anyone to arm and do usage at low levels or at least what your attributes allow.
So a crafter could arm a low level sword to kill a chicken or roach. A fighter could pick apples or do some low level mining, like clearing out most of their basement. Medium/higher level stuff would be for the dedicated people who trained/spec'd their skills.

I also reduced the cost of skills. Combat skills are 3-4 skill points. Crafting skills are 1-2 points.
And skill point earning is 1 point every level up to level 10. Then 1 point every 2 levels from 10 to 30. Then after 30, it is every 4 levels. There is no automatic learning of skills.

There is an issue with death and a player reverting back a level. They would be able to train a skill and use it for a time then /suicide or get killed then revert back with skill points and the skill untrained at no cost and whatever work they did, like make a million arrows, would remain. Probably will change how the revert works, like just reduce XP and skill levels but keep skills trained and skill points the same. So once you train something, it is permanent unless you specifically untrain it and loose a skill point doing it.

How does that sound so far?

I have not added or coded the base skills and branches and requirements to train this thread has focused on. Not sure I want to because it seems to deviate a lot from V1/V2. I think the usable untrained skills by attribute would be a solution to an issue some of you brought up.

We could make crafting hybrid weapons that use crafting skill, like cooking knife requires Cooking  or Dagger to be trained to arm. That is an idea I probably would do anyways.
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Offline Nick Blaze

Re: Skill System
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2015, 06:35:51 pm »
That sounds rather cool.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2015, 06:37:53 pm »
Sounds better than v5 in any case :)
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Offline Sacrifice

Re: Skill System
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2015, 01:19:13 am »
Sounds great so far. ;D

Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2015, 08:56:02 am »
un-trained skills are usable and the value is based on Attributes. You can't earn XP and level it and it doesn't show up on the client skill list.

Is there no way to know what your level in an un-trained skill is? I feel like there should be some way to access that information even if it isn't readily available. That way if you pick up a sword and it requires 30 "Sword" but you can't equip it, you can at least figure out how far off you are.

I think this is a good compromise between V2 and what you were trying to do with V5, even though it's basically V5 just without allowing players to get XP in untrained skills.

I'd still like to see prerequisite skills implemented since I think it serves to diversify the population, add mid/late game goals and allows for some nice specialization in specific areas. It might not work fantastically with being able to use all skills though since players would have access to end tier skills from the beginning. I think in order for the two systems to work together, it would need to be done so that the player can use any skills (at an "untrained" capacity) connected to any nodes they already have.


No matter the system being used, I think magic needs to be discussed.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2015, 12:49:03 pm »
And skill point earning is 1 point every level up to level 10. Then 1 point every 2 levels from 10 to 30. Then after 30, it is every 4 levels. There is no automatic learning of skills.
that seems backwards to me.  low levels are easy to get, higher levels are harder to get, every player gets to level 3-5 just doing basic stuff to get set up.  thats up to 4 skill points when you've done nothing significant, from there only getting 1 skill point going from level 30 to 34(really hard levels especially for a crafter) is just outright wrong!

what if early levels gave fewer points then higher levels gave more?  for example only getting points every 5 levels: 1 point at level 5, 2 at level 10, then 3 at level 15, and so on.  this way as you continue on getting better your character can actually get better.

your way gives 9 points by level 10, 19 points by level 30, and 24 points by level 50
new way gives 3 points by level 10, 21 points by level 30, and 55 points by level 50

that may seem high for level 50, but how many players really make it that high without restarting?  another idea would be to modify previous suggestion and not add quite so much each point level.  for example: 1 point at levels 5 and 10, 2 points at levels 15 and 20, 3 points at levels 25 and 30...and so on.

mod way gives 2 points by level 10, 12 points by level 30, and 30 points by level 50

this way getting higher levels actually means something!
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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Skill System
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2015, 11:30:19 am »
I updated the server/client last night with the skill system changes.
Players were wiped and had to wipe the world too.

I would only train/spec unarmed since nothing else usable currently.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2015, 12:29:00 pm »
So the "Community" thread got me thinking more about skill balance. I think at some point we're going to need to talk more about how many skillpoints each skill costs, how many points players get per level and how many skills a player should expect to be able to reasonably obtain. It's a daunting task since there are so many angles to it, but .. let's start.

Here's the V2 skills, categorized


Defenses
- Melee Defense
- Missile Defense
- Magic Defense

Melee Weapons
- Unarmed
- Dagger
- Sword
- Axe
- Mace
- Spear
- Staff
- Flail
- Scythe

Ranged Weapons
- Bow
- Crossbow
- Throwing

Magic
- Black Magic
- White Magic
- Red Magic
- Blue Magic
- Mana Conversion

Perception/Deception
- Stealth
- Scan
- Assess

Crafting
- Alchemy
- Blacksmith
- Masonry
- Cooking
- Fletching
- Tailor
- Carpentry
- Jewelry Making

Gathering
- Farming
- Fishing
- Mining

Mobility
- Swim
- Run
- Climb

Misc
- Read Ancient
- Trap
- Tame
- LockSmith
- First Aid
- Sports


I think we should ignore specialization for now - everything should be balanced around NOT specializing, that way if someone specializes it creates a much more meaningful impact, boosting them in one way but crippling in another. You shouldn't expect to be able to specialize in multiple things without severely impacting your skill point availability.

Now, I think we should look at .. what should a warrior type player have? Probably a weapon, let's say Sword. Probably Melee, Missile and Magic defenses as well. All the mobility skills are default. So that's about it, really, assuming all they wanna do is run around and hit stuff with their sword. Let's add Crossbow as well for some ranged support.

This totals 34 points. If they start with 40 points, the player is able to obtain 100% of their desired skills before even entering the game .. which doesn't seem right. Sure, there's plenty of other skills they can get, lots of crafting and gathering and such but at this point it's all "Extra". Even Crossbow was really an "extra".

At character selection, I would expect the player to be able to pick up Sword and Melee Defense. By level 5, grab Missile Defense. By 10 grab Magic Defense. By 15, Crossbow. Then, by the time they hit 20, they can start going into all the extra crafting stuff. (Edit: This might be too dramatic, but I think it's much closer than the current system)

The idea is, at character creation, you should be able to get only part of your "main" skills then work towards getting the rest of them as you go. You should be forced to make decisions as you go. Right now it seems like you're only forced to make tough decisions if you train 6 skills at creation and specialize in 3 of them. Specialization should not be the "norm".

By level 20, if you made your character with a (very) specific direction in mind, I think you should be able to obtain most if not all the skills pertaining to that specific direction (So, able to do at lv20 what you could normally do at character creation). So if this balance were to be applied to the V2 ini's, you'd put starting skillpoints at 10 and, in general, lower the skill point costs of all skills (closer to 5). This ensures there is always stuff you will want to obtain by leveling and that no one will be able to obtain everything. It would be around 200 skill points needed to train every skill and simply not possible.

This is all dependent on how fast you level and what the cap is set to though. This is also assuming we use the V2's system of picking up skills and not the tree as previously discussed in this thread.
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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Skill System
« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2015, 03:14:42 pm »
With the changes so far in V6:
- 1 skill point per 1 level, 2 to 10
- 1 skill point per 2 levels, 12 to 30
- 1 skill point per 4 levels, 32 to 9999999...

Level 1 - starting skill points, 10 to 20 ???, perhaps 12
Level 10 - 9 earned
Level 20 - 14 earned
Level 30 - 19 earned
Level 40 - 22 earned
Level 52 - 25 earned

Skill point costs to train (not spec):
- melee skill - 4 points
- missle skill - 4 points (none in yet)
- magic skill - 4 points (none in yet)
- minor craft skill - 1 point (I think it needs to be 2 points)
- major craft skill - 2 points (I think it needs to be 3-4 points)

I am adding a Shield skill and probably an Armor skill so combat players have more to spend on since Melee Def is gone. Missle and Magic Def not sure about.

Examples with 12 starting points:
- Melee: Sword, Shield, Armor
- Missile: Bow, Armor, Dagger/Staff  (missile requires a topic to discus someday)
- Magic: Fire Magic, Water Magic, Spirit Magic (or some combo, each has offensive and defensive capabilities)
- Builder: Masonry, Carpentry, Mining
- Harvester: Mining, Refining, Farming
- Crafter: Blacksmith, FineSmith, Tinker
- Service: Cook, Tailer

Ok, I got lost, heh.

So at Level 20, you have 26 skill points so far. You can have 6 major (4 cost) skills and 1 minor (2 cost) skill.
That would be a full Spec warrior, with 3 skills spec at a cost of 8 each and 2 left over for fishing.

At Level 40, you will have 36 points so far.

Anyways... the thing is, at some point, a player will become self sufficient. It is just a matter of time. We just have to see how the population is and balance out skill point earning.

But I am leaning towards making it very hard to become self sufficient which is one reason why skill points taper out after level 30 and why I want NPCs to be active in the world in case players aren't.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2015, 03:20:17 pm »
With the changes so far in V6:
- 1 skill point per 1 level, 2 to 10
- 1 skill point per 2 levels, 12 to 30
- 1 skill point per 4 levels, 32 to 9999999...

I don't know what the point of this is. If you want to slow the rate at which players get skill points, can't you just raise the XP needed per level and keep giving 1 point per level? Seems like it would accomplish the same thing but be much more straightforward.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2015, 04:13:27 pm »
I don't know what the point of this is. If you want to slow the rate at which players get skill points, can't you just raise the XP needed per level and keep giving 1 point per level? Seems like it would accomplish the same thing but be much more straightforward.

that seems backwards to me.  low levels are easy to get, higher levels are harder to get, every player gets to level 3-5 just doing basic stuff to get set up.  thats up to 4 skill points when you've done nothing significant, from there only getting 1 skill point going from level 30 to 34(really hard levels especially for a crafter) is just outright wrong!
seems Mickey made up his mind on that and we can't change it...
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2015, 04:28:16 pm »
Just seems like we're using two different methods to do the same thing.

A scaled down example of Mickey's proposed system


Level |XP Required |Skillpoint Gain
11001
22001
34001
48000
516001
632000
764001
8128000
9256000
10512001

Is really the same as this

Level |XP Required |Skillpoint Gain
11001
22001
34001
424001
596001
6896001

(think I may have done some adding slightly wrong on the second table. Pretend it's right.)

Ok, so in the first table, level 4 doesn't give you a skill point. It's useless. Cut it completely. Instead, add the XP you would have needed for that level to the next one. Essentially just scale up the XP required per level and keep giving a skill point per level. There's no point in leveling up if it doesn't give you a skill point.

You still need an acpigulated total of 102600 XP to get 6 skill points and you get one every level.
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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Skill System
« Reply #58 on: June 09, 2015, 05:31:51 pm »
Well, we can change it to a skill point per 2 levels, all the way and it is pretty much the same.
It really depends on how much players want to depend on others for items and services they need/want. How much do we tweak it, you know.

And with everyone being able to use ANY untrained skill at low levels, the need for items/services is only at mid to high level. That is the only real major change I made from V1/V2 that we will only really know the effect once a majority of skills implemented and play tested.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2015, 03:04:51 am »
And with everyone being able to use ANY untrained skill at low levels
why do you have to add that?  there are so many things wrong with doing it that way:

if everyone can use basic alchemy(making minors) then who is actually going to train alchemy to make potions?
if everyone can harvest plants, why bother with a farming skill?
if everyone can cook basic food why bother with a cooking skill?
if everyone can cast basic buffs, why train a skill just to grind it?
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