Author Topic: Skill System  (Read 7072 times)

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Offline Pokemon Steve

Re: Skill System
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2015, 02:45:38 pm »
That's fair. But your effort would go further if you pushed for a open source project you could directly contribute to.

Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2015, 02:54:17 pm »
Mickey has stated he is not doing open source and I respect his decision. Rather than push him to do something he doesn't want, I'd rather help him do something he DOES want. If I really wanted to put the effort in, I'd get off my ass and make my own game.
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Offline Sacrifice

Re: Skill System
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2015, 02:57:41 pm »
Why are all of you so eager to help a guy who will abandon the project in at most a few months. Keep your ideas unless he goes open source, and then work as a team.

Why do you try to internet?

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Skill System
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2015, 03:24:30 pm »
@Pokemon Steve, if you read the What's New for V5/V6... you see that I been working on it since July 2013... over 2 years if you count work before whats new was coded.

Mongo is right about getting support. V1/V2 would never had gotten as far as it did without the players support. That why I shifted gears and dropped V5 and got the veterans on board with V6.

And yes I will take breaks but I plan to let everyone know. Breaks help clear the mind and reset ones point of view. They would only last a month or so, depending on personal, real life cirpigstances.


And... we left out Gawd skills.

- Base Spirituality or Religion or whatever
 - Prayer skill
 - Ritual skill
 - each gawd may have a pray skill like Humus Favor
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2015, 03:56:20 pm »
Tried to clean it up and organize it a bit to make the paths clearer. Still a little muddled in some places where the lines cross but it's not too bad.

I feel like there should be a base node for the deception/perception (white/yellow) set of nodes. Couldn't come up with anything. They just stood out as the two branches that didn't first have a main base/category node.

Added "Animal Husbandry", requiring Farming and Beast Lore. Idk, maybe it's not needed. Can always delete nodes.

Managed to squeeze Religion/Prayer/Ritual in there, not sure what else to do with em.

Shoop!

Offline Greatest

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2015, 04:44:44 pm »
maybe tracking as a base for deception/assess?  could put stealth and scan too far down though ???

cutting may be better as chop, and blade as slash?

I think Mickey meant splitting arborist off and adding a new section called forestry that leads to it and a few other skills...seems weird in the middle there.

as to bigger traps, trap + refining could lead to a skill like mechanics* that allows for more sophisticated traps such as spring traps(like a traditional bear trap).

as for religion, I don't think it needs to be split that way.  religion should split to where you have to choose a gawd, and if it prevents you from choosing another while you have 1 it could make for a bit of fun...holy war!

*I think tinkering would be a better name for mechanics, but it is being used for something else.  to me I don't see basic stone type tool making being called tinkering, but I'm not sure of a better name for it unless you want to go with knapping(but that wouldn't include wood and other materials).
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2015, 05:53:30 pm »
I thought Artisan was a fine name for generic handiwork
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2015, 07:46:02 pm »
I don't know, I see artisan as a more refined thing...but ignore me on naming things, I've several dogs throughout my life and they all end up with names such as 'Dog' 'Little Dog' 'Doggy' 'Mutt' and 'Hey Dog'.
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Nick Blaze

Re: Skill System
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2015, 08:24:12 pm »
Well, there's a lot of thought put into.  I think that so long as we show Mickey that we're all interested, Mickey will also be interested.  Working as a team is a great way to finally get an RPGWO that we, the players, want to play.
"A martial artist's fist is his soul and his technique his personality."

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Skill System
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2015, 11:48:21 am »
Can even take the combat skills farther too by adding each weapon type.
Sword
- short
- long
- broad
- great

So far I like this system. Will start coding it after I get Carry tab coded. Well, maybe I should redo skills first since it means a player wipe and it is more important at this point.
You may have conquered my worlds, but I destroyed them!

Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2015, 12:07:24 pm »
I think the ranged section needs attention.

Maybe like...
Basic Ranged
-- Projectile
---- Darts
---- Crossbows
---- Bows
---- Ballista?
-- Throwing
---- Knives
---- Slings
---- Shurikens
Shoop!

Offline Roarion

Re: Skill System
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2015, 03:11:09 pm »
Tried to clean it up and organize it a bit to make the paths clearer. Still a little muddled in some places where the lines cross but it's not too bad.

I feel like there should be a base node for the deception/perception (white/yellow) set of nodes. Couldn't come up with anything. They just stood out as the two branches that didn't first have a main base/category node.

Added "Animal Husbandry", requiring Farming and Beast Lore. Idk, maybe it's not needed. Can always delete nodes.

Managed to squeeze Religion/Prayer/Ritual in there, not sure what else to do with em.



Honestly it looks like too many skills that will end up getting very limited depth / usages. Breaking things up into smaller categories offers no advantage besides making the player train 5 skills instead of 1 that covers larger topics.

I think most of the skills will end up being like cooking where once you train it, there is almost no use in getting it any higher. Unless cooking is given priority for restoring health or something rather then alchemy I see no use to the skill where there will probably be other options such as seeds/fruit to get food.

Is anyone going to really use read ancient, locksmithing, lockpicking, and many of the other subcategories that are minor skills? Most of them are just skills someone lvl 80+ says "ok i guess ill train this now and never use it".

The way V2 does magic is fine why chop it into 6 skills? White (healing), red (boosting could be cut to make alch better), blue (warping), black (damage) seems plenty good to me.

Maybe having better diving allows you to breath underwater for a longer amount of time, maybe deception is now included free with stealth, etc. There are a lot of common sense ways to combine skills to make the game more clear and straightforward.

I think breaking the skills up into small categories makes usage cycles / a harder to understand game. In a standard V2 server you would think you only need fletching to make arrows but the entire skill relies on you having cooking (to make bow strings), carpentry (to make arrow shafts), blacksmithing (to make arrow heads), mining (need ore), and a combat skill to kill chickens (feathers for arrows and guts for bow string) which is around 25ish skill points just to make arrows. Fletching might as well be useless since everyone makes 500k arrows before they remake or buys arrows off a infinite stack trader because of the huge dependence on other skills.

Can even take the combat skills farther too by adding each weapon type.
Sword
- short
- long
- broad
- great

So far I like this system. Will start coding it after I get Carry tab coded. Well, maybe I should redo skills first since it means a player wipe and it is more important at this point.

Sounds like too much work. Adding all these sub-categories really seems like it would make one weapon the same as another. I am assuming the following - a short sword attacks faster (now its dagger), a long sword has two range (now its flail), a great sword is 2H and does more damage at a slower speed (now it's scythe), a broad sword is still 1 range but slower and higher damage (now its axe). I would attempt to keep the skills unique in some fashion rather then attempting to blend them together.

Most of the v2 attributes are worthless anyway such a +crit, evade shield, break shield, bit extra AL, etc. There are clear winners in the current V2 weapon system such as bow/xbow with long range, dagger with dex/quick, mace with sta drain + white magic, spear being melee and longer range.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 03:17:09 pm by Roarion »
Asylum - lvl 33 Thrower
Pyramid - lvl 40 Scythe
Dementia - lvl 69 Spear
Nexus V2 - lvl 61 Stealth
Rebirth - lvl 72 Bow
Ganymede - lvl 56 Mage
Hex - lvl 1000 Admin
Future - lvl 1000 Admin
Retired - Unless V6 pulls a miracle

Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2015, 03:25:22 pm »

Honestly it looks like too many skills that will end up getting very limited depth / usages. Breaking things up into smaller categories offers no advantage besides making the player train 5 skills instead of 1 that covers larger topics.


The idea is specializing in an area rather than being able to just grab every skill by the time you hit 30. It may be that there are too many skills and some will need to be combined to make sense, but this isn't a concrete thing, just a general outline.


I think most of the skills will end up being like cooking where once you train it, there is almost no use in getting it any higher. Unless cooking is given priority for restoring health or something rather then alchemy I see no use to the skill where there will probably be other options such as seeds/fruit to get food.


Yeah, would help if food had other benefits to make it worth it to have. Maybe hunger affects you differently the lower it is (directly affects regen or something) so people are much more inclined to keep their hunger up.


Is anyone going to really use read ancient, locksmithing, lockpicking, and many of the other subcategories that are minor skills? Most of them are just skills someone lvl 80+ says "ok i guess ill train this now and never use it".


You're thinking about these skills as they existed in V2. Read Ancient was never really useful - this could easily be improved upon. What if there are artifacts in ancient ruins that can only be activated if you can read the language? Maybe you get the advantage of being able to use lifestones in different areas, idk. There's stuff that can be done with it.

Locksmith and Lockpicking. Lockpicking is obvious, but locksmithing I have no idea what else could be done with it. Might be that the two need to be combined.


I think breaking the skills up into small categories makes usage cycles / a harder to understand game. In a standard V2 server you would think you only need fletching to make arrows but the entire skill relies on you having cooking (to make bow strings), carpentry (to make arrow shafts), blacksmithing (to make arrow heads), mining (need ore), and a combat skill to kill chickens (feathers for arrows and guts for bow string) which is around 25ish skill points just to make arrows. Fletching might as well be useless since everyone makes 500k arrows before they remake or buys arrows off a infinite stack trader because of the huge dependence on other skills.


Maybe additional arrow types are made where you don't necessarily need the best stuff to make them. Get fletching, find a branch, use fletching to straighten it and sharpen it, maybe something basic to add to the end to make it fly straight.


Can even take the combat skills farther too by adding each weapon type.
Sword
- short
- long
- broad
- great

So far I like this system. Will start coding it after I get Carry tab coded. Well, maybe I should redo skills first since it means a player wipe and it is more important at this point.

Sounds like too much work. Adding all these sub-categories really seems like it would make one weapon the same as another. I am assuming the following - a short sword attacks faster (now its dagger), a long sword has two range (now its flail), a great sword is 2H and does more damage at a slower speed (now it's scythe), a broad sword is still 1 range but slower and higher damage (now its axe). I would attempt to keep the skills unique in some fashion rather then attempting to blend them together.


Isn't splitting them up like this making them more unique? Some additional ways to affect people would need to be come up with so it's not just a matter of attack speed. Honestly though, looking at this version of the tree, I think this may be too much stuff.

Most of the v2 attributes are worthless anyway such a +crit, evade shield, break shield, bit extra AL, etc. There are clear winners in the current V2 weapon system such as bow/xbow with long range, dagger with dex/quick, mace with sta drain + white magic, spear being melee and longer range.

.. good thing this isn't v2?


The tree isn't balanced.. at all. Right now I'm just trying to get all the ideas on the thing so we can see possible connections, ideas for new skills, places where re-works are needed. Also, keep in mind that each node could require a different number of skill points to unlock so even the less useful skills may not require a significant investment.




Made some changes, added Herbologist as another pre-requisite for alchemy. That makes sense, right? Though I had thought of herbologist as being able to plant and harvest herbs so I guess you shouldn't need to know how to plant stuff in order to use it.. idk..

Re-arranged the forestry part.. I really don't know what you wanted me to do with that.

Renamed Tinker back to Artisan, added Tinker as a new skill with Trap and Ore Refining as requirements as per Greatest's suggestion. Used for other devices and stuff? Idk.

Added Dual Wielding from basic melee. Is that a good idea?

Added a ton of specific weapons to each weapon type. I dunno about this. I think it might just make it too much of a pain to make all those specific weapons. Plus some of em like.. Dagger? How many different types of daggers are there? And Halberd is pretty specific already. Idk.

Also, where should I put wands? Should there be wands? Maybe they're just usable with arcane focus? That would make sense I guess.

Added some other ranged weapon types. Wasn't sure if I should keep going with the thrown stuff, you can throw anything really so..


Shoop!

Offline Greatest

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2015, 04:09:11 pm »
I'm going to agree with Roar about going too far with the breakdowns.  if you break sword down into short long broad and great then you're just taking away too many options for the player.  if a person can use a broadsword, whats the difference when using a longsword?  I get that short swords are more stabby while longer swords are slashy, but a sword is a sword, and anyone who can use a sword will be able to use pretty much any type of sword they want.  look at olympic fencing, they have a limit of basic types of crappy swords(foils, rapiers, things that only stab), in a sword fight no one would ever choose such a sword.  on the other hand several types of swords that are good for various types of combat can be used in the exact same way as those swords(sabres, flyssas, thin straight slashing blades).

I think it would be nice to have subskills for each weapon type, but more of a usable skill like I mentioned before.  ie: aimed shot for bow, impale for spear, hack for axe(slows movement?)
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Roarion

Re: Skill System
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2015, 05:22:26 pm »
.. good thing this isn't v2?

Read Ancient was never really useful - this could easily be improved upon.

The tree isn't balanced...

Also, keep in mind that each node could require a different number of skill points to unlock.

The idea is specializing in an area rather than being able to just grab every skill by the time you hit 30

Last I heard v6 is directly based off of v2 so i'm going to base everything off of my knowledge of how v2 things work.

Read Ancient has never been useful along with other skills which is why I pointed them out. They need to be removed / upgraded in some way.

I never said the tree was balanced, I was just giving my own feedback on the ideas it brought up.

I guess I didn't realize you needed to train Mineral Lore and then upgrade that to mining in your skill tree. I just figured the nodes were expanding out to end skills. So having mineral lore trained allows me to use everything it expands to? Going further down the tree gives more spec in those skills? Do I perma keep mineral lore? Does using spec weapon smith upgrade my mineral lore also or have I lost XP in my base skill? It seems like the biggest advantage is lvling up the base skill as high as possible and then training spec skills.

Also it takes a very long time to spec all skills on every RPGWO world historically. Unless lvl 30 is an extremely high level even simplifying the skills will take like 80+ to obtain them all for any fighter.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 05:27:50 pm by Roarion »
Asylum - lvl 33 Thrower
Pyramid - lvl 40 Scythe
Dementia - lvl 69 Spear
Nexus V2 - lvl 61 Stealth
Rebirth - lvl 72 Bow
Ganymede - lvl 56 Mage
Hex - lvl 1000 Admin
Future - lvl 1000 Admin
Retired - Unless V6 pulls a miracle

Offline Roarion

Re: Skill System
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2015, 05:34:12 pm »
The idea is specializing in an area rather than being able to just grab every skill by the time you hit 30

With the current state of the game (Less then 10 ppl online across all servers at peak hrs) I think it would be acceptable to let everyone start with all of the base skills so that they can try them out, and then can spec them to their liking as they level up. It would give traders a chance to dabble in combat and fighters could make some supplies for themselves (but never really be as good as a dedicated trader/fighter).
Asylum - lvl 33 Thrower
Pyramid - lvl 40 Scythe
Dementia - lvl 69 Spear
Nexus V2 - lvl 61 Stealth
Rebirth - lvl 72 Bow
Ganymede - lvl 56 Mage
Hex - lvl 1000 Admin
Future - lvl 1000 Admin
Retired - Unless V6 pulls a miracle

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Skill System
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2015, 05:35:12 pm »
@Fletching requiring tons of skills, yeah that was crap. The V1/V2 usage system was limited in that only 1 skill could be used for a task. The V5 system isn't limited. I can specify many skills per usage now, so fletching could include ALL the steps needed, or a lot of the simpler ones.

Yeah, it probably is to far on the weapon skills, heh.

I get 2 things from this overall topic:
- get rid of V5 system, use V1/V2 system then...
- code feature that requires specific skill values to be reached before allowed to train some skills

Magic is still up in the air. The issue with WOT magic is you can't randomize the spells like we can with runes in V1/V2. Plus not sure how to use all those combinations to make the spells we want. A lot wouldn't be very intuitive plus I see limits popping up.

The whole weapon break down comes to pros and cons of damage vs. speed vs. burden and what a player prefers. A short sword is faster, lighter than a long but less damage and will require more stamina to bring a target down.

The V5 weapons now are very linear with no variation like that.
- tin : short, long, broad sword
then
- bronze : short, long, broad sword
Each does more damage then the previous and requires more skill.
I want it to be more flexible and each ore has same requirement.
Dang, off topic  ???

EDIT: Oh, but no spec'ing skills, that is removed?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 05:38:06 pm by Mickey Kudlo »
You may have conquered my worlds, but I destroyed them!

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Skill System
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2015, 05:59:18 pm »
Here is my view of how it would work:

- Mineral Lore of 10
 - can mine tin (the lowest ore) requires 10 ML
- player gets ML to 20 then is able to train Mining for 2 skill points
- Mining starts at 20
- mining and mineral lore get same XP??? Maybe just mining.
- Cobalt ore requires 30 Mining

Craaap.. I am all confused now.
You may have conquered my worlds, but I destroyed them!

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Skill System
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2015, 06:08:33 pm »
OK, OK...

- Mineral Ore is capped at 30. You still get level XP using it tho
- Mining grows and allows higher ore extraction...oh (add Extraction under Mining)
- Mining caps out at 60 so you can get medium ores
- player trains Extraction for 2 skill points
- Extraction has no cap
You may have conquered my worlds, but I destroyed them!

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Skill System
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2015, 06:14:28 pm »
Now with the Mineral Lore of max 30 (or any level) it applies to all usages of children skills.

- Ore Refining skill would effectively be 30 and you could refine low level ores even though you never see the Ore Refining skill.

I think we need Blacksmith after Mineral Lore then the other smiths.

- Blacksmith skill would be 30 and you could do low level usage

OK, I think I am getting it now. Might need a beer to help.
You may have conquered my worlds, but I destroyed them!

 

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