Author Topic: Skill System  (Read 7073 times)

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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Skill System
« on: May 26, 2015, 03:14:43 pm »
The current V5/V6 skill system:
- must use all skill points at creation
- all skills cost 1 skill point to train to next higher level
- 3 levels:
 - untrained : 33% xp, max 30
 - trained : 66% xp, max 60
 - specialized : 100% xp, no max
- skills become learned by using and become untrained level
- no skill points earned on player leveling
- no spending points to up the skill level
- spendable XP will some day be able to be spent to raise skill value but not level
- using a skill raises the skill value plus raises base attributes like strength or wisdom

This system also has scaled down the skill values. V1/V2 had 0 to 1000 but V5/V6 is 0 to 100 comparable.
So where 500 in V2 is same as 50 in V6, sort of. It still needs balancing :)

Would you rather bring the V1/V2 system back or keep this but improve/change it?
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2015, 03:26:02 pm »
I don't think you should be able to use any skill you haven't trained, even if you can just use it at an "untrained" capacity. Having a strict separation between someone who has a skill and someone who doesn't is important.. to me, anyways.

Learning new skills by spending (really? I can't say "acc-umulated"? Sigh.) skillpoints is very satisfying. Learning a new skill by punching something is not.


That's not to say improvements couldn't be made to the V1/V2 system, but I'd start there and work on improvements rather than the V5 system.

But obviously I don't speak for everyone...
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 03:27:42 pm by Mongo »
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2015, 06:29:04 pm »
the V1/V2 system is far better than the V5 way...that said I could see the fun in some changes to the system.

instead of learned and specialized being the only choices, you could change it to novice adept and professional. 
-novice would be 1st level of learning a skill(and level of skills gained from skill points in game) you would suffer an xp penalty, and have a cap on max skill level.
-adept would be mid level with no xp penalty, but would still have a level cap, and you should be able to upgrade a novice skill to adept in game by spending points. 
-professional would have no xp penalty and no level cap.  this would be your primary field...
-skill cap would have to be based on levels in your new system if you're sticking with the 0-100 and 100 is max level of a skill* novice would have a cap at 50 and adept at 75

you could also change spendable xp...my only thought would be if we also got stat points when leveling.  number of stat points gained = level -1, so at level 2 you'd get 1 point at level 11 you'd get 10...making a slow start but getting better each level(which is what I think you were going for).

however, I actually like the V1/V2 system the way it is now(I think most do), so any changes made would feel weird..

@Mongo, turn off the filter if you want to say acpigulated without the filter trying to bleep pig.  click "profile" at the top, scroll to the bottom and click "look and layout" then tick the "leave words uncensored" box.

*I remember you saying elsewhere 100 wasn't max level so I'm not sure how you plan to do this
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Offline Sacrifice

Re: Skill System
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2015, 08:18:20 pm »
I prefer the V1/V2 method of showing 1-1000+, skill as previously stated we girls like big things (that's for you greatest)

I think the whole v1/v2 skill system was great and I prefer it to the newer one although it doesn't really matter to me I am not picky.

Offline Aero

Re: Skill System
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2015, 04:38:54 am »
I prefer the v1/v2 method as well. Although the idea of v5/v6 skill system is neat. I like the thought of performing a skill and then out of no where learning something new for that skill. i.e. Casting Fireball x times eventually you learn fire blast or whatever. Some sort of random surprise. But that's just me. Still prefer v1/v2 at the core of the skill system.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2015, 08:32:33 am »
While we're talking about possible improvements, how about requirements for skills? As in, tiers. I imagine 2 types.

1) Prerequisite Tier: You start off as a farmer, tending to your fields. Before too long you realize your property is a local hotspot for wolves and you're going to need some way to fend them off. You pick up a cudgel and train Basic Weapons (allowing the use of more basic/crude weapons, possibly up to a short sword). Later, your liege lord is recruiting soldiers for an army and you've been called to arms. Your cudgel, while great for thwaking local critters, simply won't be much of a threat to a warrior. So you train Sword (only available as a choice because you already had Basic Weapons. Could have also picked from a number of other weapons). You then die because you didn't train any armor. RIP.

2) Replacement Tier: I'm going to use the above example again since .. you could really go either way with it. So in the above example at the end you would have both Basic Weapons and Sword. Now, instead of having both, you could have Sword replace Basic Weapons. In this, you've essentially transformed one skill to another. I suppose it could be said that you lose something here since you can no longer use that cudgel from before, so maybe a different example would work better. But I'm sure we could come up with some creative uses for that.

So in setting up a system like this, you unlock a ton of potential. You could set up entire skill trees this way if you wanted. It allows you to restrict what skills can be selected at character selection and ensure there's a greater variety available for later levels. Plus, if there are multiple tiers, it allows a character to really focus and specialize in one particular area if they choose rather than being a jack of all trades. Characters, in general, will be much more diverse.

One problem this poses is with Specializing in a skill at character creation. If a skill is replaced by another subsequent skill, I guess you could just have the new skill now be the one that is Specialized. If a skill becomes obsolete because it was just a requirement for a later skill though, I think it would pretty much be wasted skill points. Maybe specializing would need to be reworked.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 08:35:06 am by Mongo »
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2015, 08:57:35 am »
I like the skill tree idea...but not replacing the skills.  maybe I've played too much HnH, but the way they have the system set so you need 1 skill to unlock others would work well in RPGWO since you're limited by levels here.

for example you'd need lumberjack/woodcutting skill before you can unlock carpentry, you'd need ceramics or masonry(or both) to unlock smithing...

with a system like this that limits what you can get by what you already have, I think specializing wouldn't be needed.  add to that you only get 1 skill point per level then it means you won't have people with every skill until really high levels.

also farming should lead to taming(?) so you can get livestock!  which also brings me to the question: how will taming work in V6?
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2015, 09:00:21 am »
Oh yeah, I was thinking about a direct 1:1 relationship between a prerequisite skill and a new skill. I didn't even think about the possibility of needing multiple skills to train a new one. That's even more neater!

For replacement, I was thinking more like.. instead of learning a new skill, you'd spend skill points to give a significant upgrade to an existing skill. If the upgraded version could do everything the old one could and then some, there's no need to have the old one anymore, so it may as well be replaced.
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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Skill System
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2015, 06:25:12 pm »
Um, ok, I am all confused now.

So bring the V1/V2 skill system back. Not sure about the XP system what I am feeling.

Skill tree is interesting. Professions may also play a role in the tree but then this kinda sounds like a class system.

Example:
- Bashing Weapon Skill
 - Staff
  - Block
   - counter strike
  - Long Strike (range 2)
 - Mace
  - Smash
  - Pelt
 
- Mining
 - refining
  - blacksmith
   - weapon smith
   - armor smith
   - tool smith
   - fine smith
    - copper smith
    - silver smith
    - gold smith
 - stone cutting
  - masonry
   - sculpture

Not sure if that the idea. I think some one needs to flesh it out more. Sounds more like sub-skills that you learn from a base skill. But it sound more like a V5 system of learning.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2015, 07:12:15 pm »
yes its sort of like 'sub skills', but no V5...more of a you need this before you can spend skill points on that type thing.  also smithing shouldn't be broken down into that many parts, its just crazy!  I could see 3 styles(armor, weapon/tools, and finesmithing).

for my example
| = main skill
- = secondary skill
> = end level skill
|Hunting
-bow
>half draw(quicker less powerful shot)
>aim(buff that increases accuracy?)
-sword
>fencing(a few special moves that consume extra stam for more damage)
-spear
>impale(big damage attack that causes bleeding damage?)
-etc(all weapon types wold depend on first knowing hunting)

|Defense
-melee
>shield
>parry
-missle
>catch(improved dodge that allows you to catch whatever was shot at you)
-magic
>reflect(small part of missed attacks hits attacker)

|Arcane(would give a few basic spells)
-necromancy
>frankensteining(or whatever name you want for this) piecing together monsters to make a better monster

|Foraging/Gathering
-farming
>tree planting
>animal stuff
-cooking
>curing(smoking/salt)
>alchemy(yes I think cooking should be a base for alchemy, but this could just be me)


|Mining
-stone working
>sculpture
-ceramics
-metalworking/refining
>tools/weapons
>armor
>goldsmithing/finesmithing
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2015, 12:23:58 pm »
Ok, well I managed to spend about an hour on this. Please note: This is not balanced at all. I tried to set this up logically and tons of tweaks would need to be made to it.




So I'll go through my thought process here. Starting from the top/left corner of "Start" and going clockwise (then clockwise again for each sub-skill, from the point of attachment).

  • 1: Basic Ranged - The idea of "Basic" weapons is to allow someone who doesn't wish to invest a ton of points into something to have some proficiency with basic weapons. Even maxed out, this skill will never provide the level of skill a more advanced ranged skill will. Could use basic weapons like a blowgun or a sling.
  • 1.1: Crossbow - Ability to use crossbows.
  • 1.2: Bow - Ability to use bows
  • 1.3: Throwing - Ability to use thrown weapons
  • 1.4: Missile Defense - I imagine people will get pissy about needing to learn "Basic Ranged" before having Missile Defense. I think it makes logical sense that someone who has a basic understanding of how ranged weapons work would have an advantage on defending against it.
  • 2: Herbal Lore - I'm not exactly sure what this skill would grant. Maybe, without this trained, if the player selects any plant or tree, they simply see "Plant" or "Tree". With it, they are able to identify the plants. Not sure if some better stuff could be applied to this. If not, it should be a very low cost skill.
  • 2.1: Farming - Able to plant and harvest food-yielding plants.
  • 2.2: Herbologist - Ability to plant and harvest herbs/special property plants (stuff used for alchemy)
  • 2.3: Arborist - Ability to plant and and harvest wood-yielding plants (trees).
  • 2.4/3.2: Cooking - Ability to cook edible food from raw materials. Not certain about having Herbal Lore be a requirement for this since you don't really need veggies in everything you eat.
  • 2.4.1: Alchemy - As Greatest said, cooling should be a prerequisite for alchemy. You should know how to cook edible stuff before you can expect to create edible stuff with magic properties. Thought about having "Arcane Focus" also be a requirement for this but I guess you don't need to be able to perform magic to be able to use herbs with magic properties.
  • 3: Wilderness Survival - Basic survival techniques. Making and lighting campfire, setting up a makeshift camp, foraging for food.
  • 3.1: Trap - Ability to create and set traps. Would be nice if trap mechanics were improved upon with additional effects such as holding the victim in place. I thought about having a smithing requirement for this since heavy duty bear traps would require metalworking to some degree. Maybe some basic traps and snares could be made with just Trap but more advanced stuff would require Artisan. Dunno.
  • 3.2/2.4: Cooking (See above)
  • 3.3/4.1: Fishing - Ability to use a fishing pole (and maybe nets/spears?) to catch fish. Was tentative about the "Beast Lore" requirement for this, but it made logical sense that you might need to understand how creatures behave in order to capture them.
  • 3.4/4.2: Scavenger - Ability to harvest raw materials from dead bodies. Doesn't just have to be hides and meat.
  • 4: Beast Lore - Like Herbal Lore, not certain exactly what this would entail. Supposed to represent a basic understanding of how creatures behave.
  • 4.1/3.3: Fishing (See Above)
  • 4.2/3.4: Scavenger (See Above)
  • 4.3: Tame: Ability to tame creatures.
  • 5: Artisan - Basic knowledge of creating basic tools with your hands. Really ended up being the central hub for most crafting.
  • 5.1/12.1: Artificer - Ability to create magical tools and objects.
  • 5.1.1: Runecrafting - Ability to create runes for spells. Kinda thinking "Read Ancient" should be a requirement for this as well.
  • 5.1.2/6.2.1: Jeweler - Ability to create magic jewelry from gold and gems.
  • 5.2: Bowyer - Ability to create bows (and crossbows?)
  • 5.3: Fletching - Ability to create arrows (and bolts?)
  • 5.4: Tailor - Ability to use hides to create cloth and leather and use those for clothes and other clothy stuff.
  • 5.5: Carpentry - Ability to create stuff from wood.
  • 5.5.1: Masonry - Ability to create stuff from stone. Not certain about the carpentry requirement. It kinda makes sense but it kinda doesn't.
  • 5.6: Locksmith - Ability to create and set locks.
  • 6: Mineral Lore - Ability to identify different minerals. Same with the other "Lore" skills, could be expanded upon.
  • 6.1: Masonry - (See Above).
  • 6.2: Ore Refining - Ability to turn raw ore into usable bars.
  • 6.2.1/5.1.2 - Jeweler (See Above)
  • 6.2.2: Armorsmith - Ability to create armor from metal
  • 6.2.3: Weaponsmith - Ability to create weapons from metal
  • 6.3: Mining - Ability to extract raw ore from rocks.
  • 7: Deception - Ability to hide your stats from others. Maybe this could be added upon as well, allowing people to use cloaks to hide their face/armor from the character visual and hide their name?
  • 7.1: Assess - Counter to Deception, Ability to identify people who wish to hide themselves. As I'm looking at it now, I think Assess should be attached to "Start" and Scan should be a sub-skill from Assess. Not sure why I attached them to Deception.
  • 7.2: Scan - Counter to Stealth, ability to spot people attempting to remain out of sight.
  • 7.3: Stealth - Ability to remain out of a player's sight.
  • 8/9/10: Climb/Run/Swim - Basic mobility stuff. Didn't see the need of going into much detail with those.
  • 11: Basic Melee - Like the basic ranged weapons, this would allow the user to use basic melee weapons. A basic understanding of how to swing an object to successfully deter an enemy. Will never be as strong as more advanced skills but can be good for those who just need some basic protection.
  • 11.1: Melee Defense - Like Missile Defense, I justified having Basic Melee as a requirement because it makes sense that you would have an easier time defending against melee attacks if you knew how they worked.
  • 11.1.1: Shield - After learning how best to defend against melee, this further improves your defense by allowing effective use of a shield. I realize now the direct "Basic Melee" requirement for this is redundant so I'm going to pretend it doesn't exist.
  • 11.2: Blade - Wasn't sure about this categorization (Blade/Blunt/Pole) but it seemed like something should be here. Possibly allows the use of daggers and swords up to a certain skill level?
  • 11.2.1: Dagger - Can expertly use daggers. Skill level cap on daggers removed.
  • 11.2.2: Sword - Can expertly use swords. Skill level cap on swords removed.
  • 11.3: Blunt - Allows the use of fists, flails and maces up to a certain skill level.
  • 11.3.1: Unarmed - Can expertly use Unarmed/Fists. Cap removed.
  • 11.3.2: Flail - Can expertly use flails. Cap removed.
  • 11.3.3: Mace - Can expertly use maces. Cap removed.
  • 11.4: Pole - Allows the use of scythes, axes, spears and staves up to a certain skill level.
  • 11.4.1: Scythe - Can expertly use scythes. Cap removed.
  • 11.4.2: Axe - Can expertly use axes. Cap removed. Possibly move this under "Blade"? Would make each category have 3 weapons.
  • 11.4.3: Spear - Can expertly use spears. Cap removed.
  • 11.4.4: Staff - can expertly use staves. Cap removed.
  • 11.4.4.1/12.2: Staff Casting - Ability to channel magic through your staff. I think I'd rather have the requirement for this be "Basic Melee" instead of "Staff" and simply remove the wand requirement for casting spells, though maybe at the cost of reduced spell effectiveness? I dunno. Needs attention.
  • 12: Arcane Focus - Ability to cast basic spells.
  • 12.1/5,1: Artificer - (See Above)
  • 12.2/11.4.4.1: Staff Casting - (See Above)
  • 12.3: Spirit Magic - Ability to manipulate "spirit" in the use of spells.
  • 12.4: Fire Magic - Ability to manipulate fire in the use of spells.
  • 12.4.1: ??? - See Bottom for notes on this.
  • 12.5: Earth Magic - Ability to manipulate earth in the use of spells.
  • 12.5.1: ??? - See Bottom for notes on this.
  • 12.6: Water Magic - Ability to manipulate water in the use of spells.
  • 12.6.1: ??? - See Bottom for notes on this.
  • 12.7: Air Magic - Ability to manipulate air in the use of spells.
  • 12.7.1: ??? - See Bottom for notes on this.
  • 12.8: Read Ancient - Ability to read and write in the Ancient language. Thinking Arcane Focus shouldn't be a requirement for this, maybe just have it be attached to Start. Also thinking this should be a pre-requisite for Runecrafting.
  • 12.9: Mana Conversion - Ability to more effectively channel magic.
  • 12.10: Magic Defense - Like the other defenses, it makes sense that you would be better at defending against something when you know how it works.

Note1: The Lore skills. I tried to make the skills very categorized. This caused me to create three skills that currently don't really have a purpose, Herbal Lore, Beast Lore and Mineral Lore. It makes sense for them to be there logically, but I don't really know what they would add to the gameplay. I think the best solution would be to find creative uses for them rather than remove them completely.

Note2: Weapon skills. In categorizing the weapon skills, I ended up creating 3 tiers of melee weapons. Basic, general type then specific type. I think it's actually a good idea, but I don't know how it should be implemented. Basic Melee would focus on allowing the user to wield crude/basic weapons. Probably a good idea to pick this up if you have no other means of defending yourself. If you decide you want to go more into blunt weapons, grab the "Blunt" skill. I imagine this allows the use of blunt weapons, but to what capacity? If there are further specializations, how good can a player get by simply having the blunt skill? One thought I had was that it would allow players to use all blunt weapons up to a certain skill requirement. After that, they need to pick a specific weapon type in order to use better ones. Not sure if this would be a pain in the ass to implement. Also.. Unarmed. Not strictly a blunt weapon. Well, your fists are blunt, but what about claws? That's not blunt. Also if you're just using your fists, how can you have a skill cap on it? This area needs some focus.

Note3: Magic skills: Mickey mentioned using the concepts of Wheel of Time for magic. This involves harnessing and "weaving" Air/Water/Earth/Fire/Spirit, either individually or in combination. This is where it gets messy (note the ???'s). You could, in theory, use all 5 for a single spell. How do you implement this? Air and Water are tightly related as as Earth and Fire, so I started to create new skills based on those requirements but I really didn't know where to go from there. I think having the 5 types is a good start but I think another solution would need to be created to deal with how they work with each other.



Edit: I realize you (Greatest + Mickey) also added specific usable skills ("counter strike", "long strike", "half draw", etc). Those could easily be tacked on to the tree. I was just putting the skills required in order to perform an action rather than the action(s) granted.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 12:28:00 pm by Mongo »
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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Skill System
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2015, 01:21:29 pm »
@Mongo, yeah, I like.

Possible Changes and additions:
- Athletics is main/pre skill for Run, Swim, Climb
- Run could have Sprint, Job sub-skills
- Swim could have Dive, Water Breath sub-skills (might be more of a spell though)
- Maybe Artisan can be renamed to Tinker or Crafter?
- Move Axe and Scythe to new skill called Cutting
- Add Halbred to Pole group
- Add Tracking to Wilderness Survival
- Maybe have a Forestry group that leads to arborist, trap, tracking, scavaging
- Add Necros Magic to Arcane Focus (necromancy)
- Blunt can also lead to Staff
- Swap Scan and Deception
- Add Picklock under Locksmith
- Put Masonry under Artisan, maybe add Stone Cutting in there
- Add Tool Smith under Ore Refining

Off the top of my head.
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Offline Sacrifice

Re: Skill System
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2015, 01:23:49 pm »
My only thing to say about your wonderful diagram and to answer your question, Axes are typically considered a bladed weapon so it could go under blades.

Other then that great job with this diagram, it is awesome you would take such time to make it.

Offline Sacrifice

Re: Skill System
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2015, 01:24:40 pm »
Congrats to mickey for 1000th post

Offline Greatest

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2015, 01:29:10 pm »
lol can't believe you made a chart...

I'm going to agree masonry needing carp as a prerequisite seems weird.  also I think the skill I called "hunting" would be the same as your basic range, though I was thinking of a weapon like an atlatl for the basic weapon type, seems like something easier to start with than a blow gun.

@Mickey: do we really need to spend that many points for run?  even if each skill is given a base cost of 1, thats 2 points just to get run if you add athletics.  I like the idea of subskills for run and swim, but not the prerequisite.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2015, 02:17:37 pm »
It beat working all morning :-P I love doing this stuff.

Made a few changes.

Moved Read Ancient to the main Start node, added it as a pre-requisite for Runecrafting (it just makes sense).

Removed redundant requirement for Shield.

Added "Necros Magic" (couldn't that potentially be the same as "Spirit"?)

Added Halbred under Pole.

Added "Cutting" skill. Don't particularly like the name much. Moved Scythe and Axe to Cutting.

Added "Athletics" skill and put run/swim/climb under it, adding "Sprint" "Dive" and "Water Breathing" (maybe it should be called "Breath Holding"? Not really breathing water..).

Added Lockpicking after Locksmith

Renamed Artisan to Tinker.

Added Stone Cutting under Tinker and made it a requirement for Masonry instead of Carpentry.

Added Toolsmith under Ore Refining. I actually had this before but deleted it thinking that "Artisan"/"Tinker" pretty much covered that already.

Added Tracking under Wilderness Survival

Added Forestry node between Herbal Lore and Farming/Herbologist/Arborist

I reworked how Deception stuff was organized. Deception/Stealth are really part of one category and Assess/Scan are part of an opposite category. I split em up and swapped some requirements. Think some improvements could still be made there though.

Renamed "Staff Casting" to "Weapon Casting" and moved the requirement to Basic Melee instead. Still no idea how this should be implemented but it probably shouldn't be restricted to just staves... idk.


When I was making this, I was thinking when a node has multiple arrows going to it, I was treating it as needing both pre-requisite skills, not just one or the other.



My main points of dislike are
  • Staff could either be a Pole or a Blunt weapon. I wasn't taking into consideration nodes with multiple pre-requisites that only need one or the other. Should I? If so, I could link Pole to either pre-requisites. If not, Blunt and Pole have 3 each already, moving Staff would add a pretty strong imbalance...
  • Cutting.. don't blades already "cut"? Should I remove Cutting and just put Scythe and Axe under Blade?
  • I was already worried Herbal Lore would be kinda useless, now I have Forestry in there too.. what would these skill do?
  • Ranged stuff looks a bit sparse, doesn't it?
  • Still thinking there should be another tier for the magics but no idea how to go about it.


Edit: Oops, forgot to actually upload it.

Shoop!

Offline Pokemon Steve

Re: Skill System
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2015, 02:34:21 pm »
Why are all of you so eager to help a guy who will abandon the project in at most a few months. Keep your ideas unless he goes open source, and then work as a team.

Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2015, 02:37:50 pm »
Why are all of you so eager to help a guy who will abandon the project in at most a few months. Keep your ideas unless he goes open source, and then work as a team.

Why does it bother you if we try to help?
Shoop!

Offline Pokemon Steve

Re: Skill System
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2015, 02:39:57 pm »
It doesn't. I'm just warning you that you are wasting your time.

Offline Mongo

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Re: Skill System
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2015, 02:44:03 pm »
Seems like a pretty pessimistic attitude. I know what it's like to get discouraged with a project and not finish it - I've done it many times. I know it's much easier to finish a project if you have people behind it showing interest and helping. If something happens and this never ends up getting far, at least I had fun helping.

Consider me sufficiently warned  :P
Shoop!

 

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