Author Topic: Magic in V6  (Read 4637 times)

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Offline Sacrifice

Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2015, 12:34:33 am »
I've always felt the runes should act a bit more like a language - ie the first rune could be the meat of the spell, what it does. The subsequent runes modify that action in some manner, like one to determine its range of action, one for its range of effect, one for duration or power.

Though it might represent an overhaul of the magic system, it also offers a significantly simplified magic ini that will describe runes instead of spells and allow more dynamic spells.

This is how v1 and v2 magic was, each first four runes specified stuff and the final had to do with level generally.

Offline Mongo

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2015, 08:23:55 am »
This is how v1 and v2 magic was, each first four runes specified stuff and the final had to do with level generally.

I think what he meant is .. yeah, in V1/V2 each rune had a meaning, but the spell definition was hardcoded. You couldn't just put the runes in that made logical sense and create the spell.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2015, 09:42:42 am »
I can see a spell combo being 1 to 10 runes. Any order and each one added increases skill needed to cast. Like 10-20 skill per rune. Plus each one has an effect. Mana cost would be 10 per rune. Cast time is 0.5 seconds per rune.

Example:
AON rune = fire bolt (Fire Magic)
BAH rune = wind bolt (Air Magic)
CUG rune = range  (Air Magic)
DUH rune = reduce mana cost (Spirit Magic)
ECU rune = blast or spread out (Water Magic) dis-forms so no mana cost?

Any thoughts on the number of main effects?

In theory, you could have 1 main effect per magic, giving 5 base spells. Then you could have a new one for each combination of 2, 3, 4 and 5 and that brings the total number of main spells to uhh... 31?

Might be a pain to come up with a logical effect for every combo though
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 09:49:43 am by Mongo »
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Offline Roarion

Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2015, 09:58:33 am »
CastTime would be changed so that it is the time needed to prepare the spell before it is cast. So you press the button to cast a spell and you must now wait CastTime duration for the spell to go off.

Please no, half of what makes PVP half decent in RPGWO is insta casting heal, swapping weapon / wand to hit your opponent and heal yourself, stealth, and running. The number of actions you need to do in such a short amount of time is what makes it interesting, semi-fun, and a bit of skill imo. Casting over time could be an additional feature but should be left out of most spells. Sitting around for a few seconds in stealth so you can cast mega nuke fire blast to one hit someone is a bad idea.

I dont see anything wrong with V2s magic system, besides taking harm, ice, blind, out of white and adding it to blue or something. Most of those spells are used for game abusing bugs anyway and I doubt many would complain if they went missing besides blinding a Grayvyn Behemoth which could be done by luring it into a trap or something in a siege map alternatively.

If you have ever played the game Magika (the first one), they have a very interesting magic system that would be fun, but much more difficult to implement. I think you should stick to V1-V2 or go with an entirely new system instead of trying to do it half way by mixing up the combos and skills a bit and calling it something new.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 10:05:44 am by Roarion »
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2015, 10:10:57 am »
Please no, half of what makes PVP half decent in RPGWO is insta casting heal, swapping weapon / wand to hit your opponent and heal yourself, stealth, and running. The number of actions you need to do in such a short amount of time is what makes it interesting, semi-fun, and a bit of skill imo. Casting over time could be an additional feature but should be left out of most spells. Sitting around for a few seconds in stealth so you can cast mega nuke fire blast to one hit someone is a bad idea.

I'm really surprised at the amount of opposition to what seemed like a logical change. Just forget I said anything, I guess.

I dont see anything wrong with V2s magic system, besides taking harm, ice, blind, out of white and adding it to blue or something. Most of those spells are used for game abusing bugs anyway and I doubt many would complain if they went missing besides blinding a Grayvyn Behemoth which could be done by luring it into a trap or something in a siege map alternatively.

Honestly, it worked, but it was boring as hell. Magic is an area where some real creativity can come in since it's really all just .. make up effects as you go. Categorizing all the spells into "This type does damage", "This type heals", "This type buffs" and "This type does everything else the others don't do" is simply .. boring.

I don't feel like we've quite found the right idea yet though. But if nothing else, re-categorizing the existing V2 spells so they fit into more appropriately themed categories would be an improvement.
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Offline Naed

Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2015, 10:27:33 am »
How bout we rollback to my proposition that Magic become one skill, requiring all skill points at the creation of a character to enter? The situation Roarion mentioned is precisely why magic has to change. Warriors and Archers can use magic to the same degree as a dedicated Wizard, making it essentially a waste of time to focus into it as black magic is just a more expensive and difficult to use weapon skill.

Throw all magic skills into one skill. Make it so costly that only dedicated wizards will train it, and keep it for the most part the same.

Maybe implement the following if there is too much opposition?
Untrained - Level one spells attainable.
Trained - Level two spells attainable.
Specialized - All spells attainable.

How would this change magic? Coming across a wizard will be a blessing, imagine the excitement of a Warrior or Archer in getting a round of buffs / regen, what a treat.

Also increasing the max duration based on skill of the caster would be neat.

All the complication of the skill is not necessary, revamp the runes a little, throw all spells into one skill that costs 90-100% of all starting skill points, and magic is profoundly altered, becoming a class and not just a couple more skills.

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2015, 10:44:47 am »
How bout we rollback to my proposition that Magic become one skill, requiring all skill points at the creation of a character to enter? The situation Roarion mentioned is precisely why magic has to change. Warriors and Archers can use magic to the same degree as a dedicated Wizard, making it essentially a waste of time to focus into it as black magic is just a more expensive and difficult to use weapon skill.

Throw all magic skills into one skill. Make it so costly that only dedicated wizards will train it, and keep it for the most part the same.

Maybe implement the following if there is too much opposition?
Untrained - Level one spells attainable.
Trained - Level two spells attainable.
Specialized - All spells attainable.

How would this change magic? Coming across a wizard will be a blessing, imagine the excitement of a Warrior or Archer in getting a round of buffs / regen, what a treat.

Also increasing the max duration based on skill of the caster would be neat.

All the complication of the skill is not necessary, revamp the runes a little, throw all spells into one skill that costs 90-100% of all starting skill points, and magic is profoundly altered, becoming a class and not just a couple more skills.



I really really really don't like this.

This isn't Lord of the Rings where wizards are few and far between. You need to imagine one out of every 3 people will be looking to invest heavily in magic. In the scenario you're describing, casters would be rare and powerful. It simply will not be that way, magic needs to be treated like every other skill.

Plus, invest all points into getting magic? So if you decide you want to do magic, you no longer have the option of doing any crafting?

I don't believe magic should be exclusive to those who wish to spend every available point investing in it. However, I do believe that a pure caster should be exponentially better at using spells than a warrior who picked up some healing on the side.

One way some games have balanced this is through the type of armor used. Basic concept is, the better your armor is, the more it burdens you down and makes it harder to cast spells. So a warrior with heavy armor might be able to cast a spell with some difficulty, maybe at reduced effect or at a very high cost. You could run around with a sword and no armor though, able to cast spells while swinging a huge blade, and the balance there is a single arrow could mean the end of you.

I don't know how V6 will handle it. Do you still need a wand in order to cast? Maybe you can cast spells no matter what you have equipped, but if you have a wand or a magic staff equipped the spell is much more powerful. To add to that (and make sure people don't just instantly swap out their bow/sword for a wand, cast a spell, and switch back) you could restrict equipping weapons in combat or something. There's a number of methods that can be done.


Overall, I know what you're saying but it simply doesn't work in an online game capacity .. at least, I don't believe it does.
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Offline Roarion

Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2015, 11:03:24 am »
I really really really don't like this.

This isn't Lord of the Rings where wizards are few and far between. You need to imagine one out of every 3 people will be looking to invest heavily in magic. In the scenario you're describing, casters would be rare and powerful. It simply will not be that way, magic needs to be treated like every other skill.

Plus, invest all points into getting magic? So if you decide you want to do magic, you no longer have the option of doing any crafting?

I don't believe magic should be exclusive to those who wish to spend every available point investing in it. However, I do believe that a pure caster should be exponentially better at using spells than a warrior who picked up some healing on the side.

One way some games have balanced this is through the type of armor used. Basic concept is, the better your armor is, the more it burdens you down and makes it harder to cast spells. So a warrior with heavy armor might be able to cast a spell with some difficulty, maybe at reduced effect or at a very high cost. You could run around with a sword and no armor though, able to cast spells while swinging a huge blade, and the balance there is a single arrow could mean the end of you.

I don't know how V6 will handle it. Do you still need a wand in order to cast? Maybe you can cast spells no matter what you have equipped, but if you have a wand or a magic staff equipped the spell is much more powerful. To add to that (and make sure people don't just instantly swap out their bow/sword for a wand, cast a spell, and switch back) you could restrict equipping weapons in combat or something. There's a number of methods that can be done.


Overall, I know what you're saying but it simply doesn't work in an online game capacity .. at least, I don't believe it does.

I agree with this besides weapon/wand swapping. I feel as if it adds another dimension of difficulty to the game cycling hotkeys while under fire.

3/3 people will invest in magic, its the primary source to regain stamina.

Magic skills are typically int/wis. A character specialized in magic and int/wis would climb much faster to higher level spells and thus have an advantage on fighters early on. Don't cap all of the spells like a typical RPGWO server at 300ish to cast and mages will have their advantage.

On Black Magic, the idea of this skill really relies on whether or not it is given the ability to auto-attack in v6. Typically BM should be the fastest lvling skill, gives you the highest boosts sooner, and does great damage all because it requires a lot more work to use.

In v1-v2 mages are always the best out of the gate, but die off later in the game due to the lack of guard / afkish playing.
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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2015, 11:21:52 am »
I can see a spell combo being 1 to 10 runes. Any order and each one added increases skill needed to cast. Like 10-20 skill per rune. Plus each one has an effect. Mana cost would be 10 per rune. Cast time is 0.5 seconds per rune.

Example:
AON rune = fire bolt (Fire Magic)
BAH rune = wind bolt (Air Magic)
CUG rune = range  (Air Magic)
DUH rune = reduce mana cost (Spirit Magic)
ECU rune = blast or spread out (Water Magic) dis-forms so no mana cost?

Any thoughts on the number of main effects?

In theory, you could have 1 main effect per magic, giving 5 base spells. Then you could have a new one for each combination of 2, 3, 4 and 5 and that brings the total number of main spells to uhh... 31?

Might be a pain to come up with a logical effect for every combo though

Um, you got me confused.

Let me count the current main effects in V2...
- heal/harm
- revive/drain stam
- mana infuse/drain
- conversion (stamina to mana)
- damage flame/blackhole(magic)/lightning/frost/blade/bash/thrust
- renewal mana/life/stamina
- denial mana/life/stamina
- armor/penalty
- hero/nova
- magic torch
- firestorm
- cure/poison
- warmth/ice
- improve item
- sight/blind
- strength/dexterity/quickness/intel/wisdom boost/penalty
- create/destroy item (lifestone, warp stone, magic wall, molten pit)
- memorize location
- warp
- animate (golem)
- lock/unlock
- essence steal (don't remember what that is?!?)
- repair item (fix warp stone)
- bond (share main attributes)
- reveal ore

That is a lot of main effects. Looking at magic.ini I can see holes that players could fill with their own combos. Plus combining main effects in a spell, like Flame and Life Denial and Fire Armor Penalty/debuff. Awesome.

Other effects I would like to add:
- ward - for protecting your land or land you are at, perm and temp
- damage type armor buff/debuff
- area of effect
- magic item infuse - add spells to weapons and armor
- nature - grow, disease, entangle, animate
- npc influence - charms, identity hiding, coersion
- illusion - create false image of self
- invisibility - moving/attack/casting breaks the spell else too powerful
- summon - animals, monsters, items, etc
- reanimate - make undead tame
- fear - they run away like greatest does when he sees an unearthed grave

RPGWO is sandbox before sandbox was invented, so would be nice to see magic be flexible and more player created.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2015, 12:14:18 pm »
I agree with this besides weapon/wand swapping. I feel as if it adds another dimension of difficulty to the game cycling hotkeys while under fire.

Yeah, I didn't really like the idea as I typed it but I'm trying to just get everything out there.

3/3 people will invest in magic, its the primary source to regain stamina.

I think we need to take a close look at buffs in general. The way they're used in V2 is just .. bad. Using buffs to get your casting higher so you can use better buffs so you can get your casting higher.. it shouldn't work like that.

I wouldn't mind seeing the complete removal of all direct skill/attribute-boosting buffs. "Hero" shouldn't be a thing. From here, I think we should take a more creative approach to how buffs work and re-add them in a better way. I don't know what this way is though.

Magic skills are typically int/wis. A character specialized in magic and int/wis would climb much faster to higher level spells and thus have an advantage on fighters early on. Don't cap all of the spells like a typical RPGWO server at 300ish to cast and mages will have their advantage.

That's true. We should push this. Rather than having magic to a certain skill level then having a wand be equipable at that level then having the spell power be based on the wand's power, have the spell's power be directly based on the skill level. Balance it so it's more impactful on non-casters. Someone who invests primarily in int/wis magic shouldn't be expected to be able to wield medium/high level swords. Likewise, a str/dex warrior shouldn't be expected to be able to cast medium/high level spells.

On Black Magic, the idea of this skill really relies on whether or not it is given the ability to auto-attack in v6. Typically BM should be the fastest lvling skill, gives you the highest boosts sooner, and does great damage all because it requires a lot more work to use.

Again, I dislike the idea of a "This magic is for damage" skill. I think all magics should be able to do damage in their own way. One magic could deal more direct damage, another focuses on damage over time, another does heavier damage at a short range, another could focus on longer range, faster spells, cheaper costs, damage VIA summons or spawning environmental hazards, stealing life, etc etc. Just like how all weapon skills deal damage but function in different ways with range, speed, stamina damage, etc.

In v1-v2 mages are always the best out of the gate, but die off later in the game due to the lack of guard / afkish playing.

The defenses .. I think are another place that needs attention. Though I have no idea what could be done about them. They are the primary source of damage prevention granted to the player automatically by .. taking damage. I think something's gotta change.



Um, you got me confused.

Let me count the current main effects in V2...
- heal/harm
- revive/drain stam
- mana infuse/drain
- conversion (stamina to mana)
- damage flame/blackhole(magic)/lightning/frost/blade/bash/thrust
- renewal mana/life/stamina
- denial mana/life/stamina
- armor/penalty
- hero/nova
- magic torch
- firestorm
- cure/poison
- warmth/ice
- improve item
- sight/blind
- strength/dexterity/quickness/intel/wisdom boost/penalty
- create/destroy item (lifestone, warp stone, magic wall, molten pit)
- memorize location
- warp
- animate (golem)
- lock/unlock
- essence steal (don't remember what that is?!?)
- repair item (fix warp stone)
- bond (share main attributes)
- reveal ore

That is a lot of main effects. Looking at magic.ini I can see holes that players could fill with their own combos. Plus combining main effects in a spell, like Flame and Life Denial and Fire Armor Penalty/debuff. Awesome.

That's true. I guess I was trying to come at this without referencing V2's stuff so much. The way I'd tackle it is to create categories for different effects and sort spells into appropriate categories. Seems like some of these were more uhh .. rather than creating a dynamic system to handle the spell, the spell was just hardcoded. Like Firestorm and Magic Torch. Both of them deal with spawning items, so I'd have them both under a "Summon" effect with the modifier changing what gets summoned.

It seems we could fit pretty much everything into the following effects
Vital Manipulation - Direct damage or recovery (instant or over time) of health/mana/stamina (Covers heal/harm, revive/drain stamina, infuse/drain mana, renewals and denials, conversion, essence steal, maybe bond)
Transformation - Turning one item into another. (Covers animate golems, lifestone, molten pit, repair item, possibly improve?)
Summon - Creating something from nothing. (Covers Magic Torch, magic wall)
Damaging Spells - Can't think of a good name for this category. Creating raw magic effects and hurling them at an enemy (Covers damage flame/blackhole/lightning/frost/blade/bash/thrust, poison)
Buff/Debuff - Improve or weaken stats/attributes. (Covers armor/penalty, hero/nova, possibly improve?, str/dex/quick/intel/wis boost/penalty)
Manipulation - Don't like this category very much (Covers sight/blind, warmth/ice, warp, memorize, lock/unlock, reveal ore)

Now, for the most part these categories fit pretty well into White/Black/Red/Blue magics. But I don't think they should be looked at like that. I'd say, for each of these categories, find a Fire/Earth/Air/Water/Spirit magic effect that makes sense.

So like..

Vital Manipulation
  • Fire - Health Regeneration (Renewal/Denial)
  • Earth - Stamina Regeneration (Renewal/Denial)
  • Air - Stamina Recovery/Removal
  • Water - Health Recovery/Removal
  • Spirit - Stamina Regeneration (Renewal/Denial)
Transformation
  • Fire - Molten Pit, Lifestone
  • Earth - Improve Armor
  • Air - Improve Weapon
  • Water - Repair Item?
  • Spirit - Golem
Summon
  • Fire - Magic Torch
  • Earth - Not sure
  • Air - Not sure
  • Water - Create water?
  • Spirit - Magic Wall
Damaging Spells
  • Fire - Fire Bolt
  • Earth - Boulder
  • Air - Wind Bolt
  • Water - Water .. uh .. bolt
  • Spirit - Spirit bolt
Buff/Debuff
  • Fire - Str/Dex Boost/Penalty
  • Earth - Armor/Penalty
  • Air - Quick Boost/Penalty
  • Water - Int/Wis Boost/Penalty
  • Spirit - Not sure
Manipulation
  • Fire - Warmth
  • Earth - Reveal Ore, Blind
  • Air - Warp, Memorize
  • Water - Sight, Ice
  • Spirit - Lock/Unlock


So this is just a crude list I threw together. It's not very clean since I tried to fit the V2 spells in here, a way I wouldn't have normally gone about this. The idea is to compile a base list of effects. It might also be possible to have additional "base/main" effects by combining two ore more of these. For example, Transformation - Spirit is the main effect for golems, so I could see it being used in conjunction with others to create different kinds of golems.

I keep trying to make this work because the logical part of my brain wants this to all be neatly organized into categories with each type of magic having a logical function within them. I like when things are neat and structured so in the future when a new spell needs to be added, we can logically look at the base list of effects and decide "Oh, ok. This new Mass Unearthed Grave spell should be a combination of Tranformation - Spirit and Summon - Earth.

Overall, I think this is too many categories. I think I could get this down to 3-4 categories and many of the spells would be pushed to combinations of two base effects rather than using the base effects themselves for spells. But if everyone disagrees with this method I won't spend the time on it.

Good lord that was a long post.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 12:18:02 pm by Mongo »
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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2015, 01:18:29 pm »
One thing I haven't brought up is Karma and Prayers. Probably should start a new thread but it relates to magic. Magic only goes so far and is limited. That is where Gawds and Prayers come in. They go beyond magic in effect and cost. Cost because Karma doesn't regen like Mana. To get karma back, you will need to worship somehow, like pray at an altar, sacrifice/offer something or maybe do a quest for a Gawd like kill another gawds follower.

Buffs could be moved into prayers.
Summoning live monsters could be a prayer since it is creation.
Any creation of matter, not a transform, could be a gawd thing.
Warping could be a prayer.

There would be a Pray skill and a Worship skill.
- Pray determines level and effect of a prayer and prayers you can learn
- Worship determines karma gain doing worship actions, efficiency

Maybe have a skill for each gawd but not sure about that.
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