Author Topic: Magic in V6  (Read 4636 times)

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Offline Naed

Magic in V6
« on: May 22, 2015, 10:53:27 am »
I vote for an overhaul.

In an attempt to make magic special, and not something everyone eventually gets. I suggest only one magic skill, with a skill point cost of 16 plus, maybe even 50% of all points, so if specialized, its the only option.

Scaling should be difficult, starting with just the conjure berries / conjure light for the first while, leading into a small hero and revive/heal, and finally leading into more offensive magics at higher levels. Might even consider a magic tree system of some kind, barring other spells in exchange for another?

The first two spells mentioned are not be accident, being so locked to magic, one must feed and be able to keep one self safe. The berries and light source give a wizard a hope of attaining the next level.

A master wizard should in no respect, red, white, blue, or black be comparable to a character of another type. If someone is magical, it should be a great hindrance, as well as their great power.

In traditional rpgwo, everyone eventually attained max red and white spells, which essentially just made black magic just another weapon type.

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2015, 12:29:51 pm »
I definately wanted to see what players wanted to do with magic but this idea doesn't make much sense. Maybe if it was fleshed out more, I could understand it. But sounds like magic would be useless for combat at first? And why is magic a hindrance? Just trying to understand, not criticize.



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Offline Naed

Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2015, 12:48:24 pm »
The point is to make magic not just another weapon class with a different name.

Traders have their value (skills).

Warriors have their value (large tank and good defenses).

Archers have their value (ranged dps and good defenses).

Wizards (ranged dps)

Wizards don't have a value as is, their are another version of ranged with worse defenses. Since everyone can boost people, why would someone make a dedicated wizard? Back when magic was just getting started being a high level wizard who could do top level boosts was an awesome ability. Once everyone can do this themselves, what the point of having a wizard along? Also perhaps making dual skills requirements would also boosts wizards, requiring X magic and X alchemy to make a boosting potion would make a lot of sense.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 12:50:04 pm by Naed »

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2015, 01:03:05 pm »
well with the way he did V5 the only way to learn a skill you didn't have at the beginning of the game was to use it, so if you don't have magic from the start(no spells to use) you wouldn't be able to learn it in game...

he said he was going to keep a similar system for V6...so even if he adds low tier spells that anyone can cast, you'd only get half the xp from it if you don't train it from the start.  someone who specializes a magic would have a huge advantage over someone who didn't start with it trained even if they are able to use some basic spells(which I'm hoping we will be).  as far as "create berries", food spells kill the economy.  why bother training cooking if someone can make berries appear out of thin air and use/sell those as food?

@Mickey, I have no suggestions for magic.  when I was working on my V2 server thats where I got stumped...but it would be nice to get rid of the color coded magic you have now.  I would like to see a few basic types of magic such as necromancy and sorcery even if you choose not to have magical boosts(which I have a feeling you might do since you want skills to stay low).
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Offline Naed

Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2015, 01:07:45 pm »
Conjured berries traditionally disappear after 15 minutes.

Maybe all I would really like to see is a much larger gap between tier 1, tier 2, and tier 3 spells. Tier 3 and above should not be reasonably attainable by a non wizard class at any level. Much like a Damon dagger should require 500 or more skill to equip, or maybe even require specialization for certain classes of weapon and armor?

Ahah! that might be the ticket.

In order to cast tier 3 and above, you must have the skill specialized.

Same and be applied to tier 3 equivalent and above heavy armors and the melee defense skill.
Same and be applied to tier 3 equivalent and above light armors/shields and the missile defense skill.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 01:10:13 pm by Naed »

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2015, 01:13:06 pm »
Idea 1:
There is the Wheel of Time magic system with "flows" of earth, spirit, water, air and fire that combine to get a desired effect. Each of those could be a skill. The higher, the more power the spell has.
- Heal : Water, Spirit
- Fire Bolt (range 10+) : Fire, Air
- Rock Blast (range 1) : Earth, (add Air to get range)
- Water Walk : Water
- Water Breath : Air
- Detect Monster : Spirit
- Armor : Earth, Spirit
Something like that.


Idea 2:
Spread the spell types around (offensive, defensive, restoring, boosting, etc) to a handful of magic skills like Magic, Dark Magic, Sorcery, Necromancy, Witchcraft, etc. You can only train 1 but each would have pros and cons depending on how you play.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2015, 01:24:04 pm »
So for your idea 1, would you train earth, water, air or spirit as separate skills? I think that would be the best implementation of that. That way as you obtain them they build on each other and open more options. Tough to use Wheel of Time as a basis though since magic users there basically dominated all else, but the concepts can still apply.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2015, 10:02:42 am »
Some thoughts on different systems.


1) V2: You can pick any of the magic skills at any time. Each magic skill works independently from the others.

This is the most simplified method. I didn't particularly like that the magics in V2 were set up the way they were though. "White magic is for healing" "Black magic is for damage", etc. I think if this system came back, I'd rather see the magics be more affiliated with a type or an element of some sort. Each one able to do damage in some way (Maybe one does more direct damage, one at longer ranges, one with short range and heavy damage, one with damage over time, one with life steal, etc etc). Each one also having access to some support or utility skills.

2) You pick elements as skills and can use spells based on the elements you have.

I think this fits best with what you mentioned above. Water, Air, Fire, Earth and Spirit are all separate skills. I think this could be handled with the rune/research system. So you have runes affiliated with Water, Air, Fire, Earth and Spirit. You can only put a rune into the research box if you have that type trained (Can only use a Fire rune if you have Fire trained).

One way spells could be researched is by using runes of a type (Water, Air, etc) rather than the specific rune. The "element" of the runes used and the order they are placed in would define the spell. So, for example, if you had Fire and Air trained you could learn Firestorm, a 5 rune spell. [Air][Air][Fire][Fire][Fire]. For each of those runes, only a rune of the correct TYPE is required. So.. here's some made up runes:

AON - Fire Rune - Increases amplitude of spell
BUH - Fire Rune - Increases duration of spell
MUX - Fire Rune - Reduces mana cost of spell

CUG - Air Rune - Increases range of spell
EZQ - Air Rune - Reduces cast time of spell
BAV - Air Rune - Adds a minor movement slow effect to the spell

So, to make the FIRESTORM spell, you could use any of the Fire runes with any of the Air runes.

CUG/CUG/AON/AON/AON would create a Firestorm that can be used at a long range with high base damage. Would probably cost a ton of mana to use though and may take a while to cast it.

EZQ/CUG/MUX/MUX/BUH would also create a Firestorm. This one has a slightly increased range, lower cast time, lower mana cost and the fire created will last slightly longer.

(I imagine there would also be spells that would only require fire runes or only require air runes).

This system could get messy. The runes would need to be well thought out and properly balanced and that may take a lot of time. This allows for a certain degree of spell creation though where players can customize how the spells behave. Another consideration for this though is it puts much less emphasis on discovering spells since there will be FAR less possible combinations of runes in order to learn it (since it's based on type instead of the specific rune). Edit: Additional properties could be added to the runes to enhance the combinations. So maybe you couldn't use just ANY fire rune, but only fire runes dealing with a specific property.


Instead of this, the normal spell research can be used. You can either prevent players from putting a rune in the research box if they don't have a specific skill or prevent the spell from being researched if they don't have the skill.

So for the firestorm spell, let's say the specific combo is "AON/BUH/CUG/CUG/BAV", just for a random combo. AON and BUH are fire runes so they'd need Fire magic trained to put them in the box. CUG and BAV are Air runes so they'd need Air magic to put them in the box. That, or when they put all the runes in the box and press "Cast" (or "Research" or whatever), if they don't have the required skills for that spell, they'd get a "You need Fire to cast this spell" or "Air" or both.


3) You unlock "sets" of spells by training different combinations of magic skills. This only really works if there's prerequisite skills. If you have Fire and Earth magic, you can train a new combination of magics dealing with earthquakes and volcanoes and stuff. If you have Water and Earth, you can train in a new Nature magic. Maybe Earth and Spirit allows for a necromancy magic. Enough combinations could be come up with to encompass everything, I think. Spells would be learned VIA the normal V2 method - guess the right combo and you have the required skill, you learn the spell.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 10:05:38 am by Mongo »
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2015, 01:35:10 pm »
since you're using V1/V2 examples: how would spells like magic torch, hero, nova, create golem and warp fit into this new system?  I like the elemental damage idea, it has always been there in some form, but to use it as a base for magic makes it so things won't fit. 

1 thing I've always thought was wrong with magic is that most have an attack even when they shouldn't(red is the only magic that doesn't). 

if white magic is for heals, then why does it have spells like poison, life denial, and harm?  a person with white magic and mana conversion could easily be a powerful fighter...as a mage needs mana to attack, you can hit them with mana denial so they're unable to attack, physical attacks need stamina so you use stam denial.  you can hit the person with poison so they're constantly losing life, life denial so not only are they losing life but aren't healing naturally either, and then harm does outright damage.

easiest way to counter white magic is with blue magic, summon 5-8 golems(even basic mud golems work because of swarm) and '/tameattack' since mages have low defense this would slaughter them quickly. 

so blue magic for golems, white magic and red magic to keep your golems alive and boosted and you're untouchable...whats the point of black magic?  again I gave up on making my own server because magic was complicated, so I don't have any alternate suggestions, but magic needs some serious work...
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2015, 01:41:40 pm »
since you're using V1/V2 examples: how would spells like magic torch, hero, nova, create golem and warp fit into this new system?  I like the elemental damage idea, it has always been there in some form, but to use it as a base for magic makes it so things won't fit.  
Magic Torch = Fire + Spirit. Makes sense, a spectral fire.
Hero = Hell, maybe all of them together. tiger it :P. Honestly don't like hero in the first place.
Nova = Same as above
Golem = Spirit would probably be involved in all summon skills, maybe different combos would yield different golems.
Warp = Probably Air + something, creating some kind of wormhole in the air to travel? I dunno.

Honestly, it's not about different types of damage. Spirit is a bit ambiguous, I imagine it dealing heavily with life manipulation, stealing essences, etc. But it's really up for interpretation. Fire doesn't necessarily have to mean "Burning" or actual flames. I imagined it more as over time effects, higher base amplitude at the cost of much more resources, like a fire consuming fuel to destroy things.

I wouldn't get caught too much in what each element means in terms of damage, you can really interpret them any way you want and they can make sense. It is magic, after all.


if white magic is for heals, then why does it have spells like poison, life denial, and harm?

...

but magic needs some serious work...

Absolutely. Never liked the way magic was divided in v1/v2. But before spells can be decided, a system needs to be created to handle them.
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Offline Roarion

Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2015, 01:49:51 pm »
AON - Fire Rune - Increases amplitude of spell
BUH - Fire Rune - Increases duration of spell
MUX - Fire Rune - Reduces mana cost of spell

CUG - Air Rune - Increases range of spell
EZQ - Air Rune - Reduces cast time of spell
BAV - Air Rune - Adds a minor movement slow effect to the spell

It would be nice if runes gave some sort of hint what they do by its picture and name. Usually in V1-V2 you just keep chucking in runes until you get lucky.

Example) A rune for a fire spell could be named Fir (for fire) and have a picture of flames on it. A rune for positive effects can have a + sign, negative effects a - sign.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2015, 01:53:15 pm »
It would be nice if runes gave some sort of hint what they do by its picture and name. Usually in V1-V2 you just keep chucking in runes until you get lucky.

Example) A rune for a fire spell could be named Fir (for fire) and have a picture of flames on it. A rune for positive effects can have a + sign, negative effects a - sign.
like the runes in Nexus?  the names may not have been so easy to understand(which is good because magic should be in ancient right?) but each rune image gave a good idea of what the rune did.  Nexus had a few faults, but I think everyone loved the magic system there!
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2015, 02:30:12 pm »
While we're talking about magic, I would like to discuss a couple changes that I'd like to see on how spells are cast.

In V2 I think there was just "CastTime" which determined how long you needed to wait after casting one spell in order to cast another.

I think this could/should be expanded into 3 main parts: CastTime, ChannelTime and RecoveryTime



CastTime would be changed so that it is the time needed to prepare the spell before it is cast. So you press the button to cast a spell and you must now wait CastTime duration for the spell to go off. If the player moves or performs another action before the duration ends, the spell is canceled and nothing happens (maybe instead of any movement/action, you need to press ESC or another key to cancel it? Idk). Maybe a visual could be added as well to indicate how long is needed before casting.

Example: Magic Missile, CastTime=1. Activate it and 1 second later you launch a missile.

ChannelTime starts after CastTime ends. Again, it is a duration in which the player must remain still (probably) and it can be canceled. The difference between ChannelTime and CastTime is that while ChannelTime is active, spell effects can trigger every ChannelInterval seconds. If ChannelTime=0, this spell does not have a channel component and it is ignored.

Example: Magic Laser (idk), CastTime = 1, ChannelTime=5, ChannelInterval=1. You press the button, 1 second later the spell begins. Every second (ChannelInteval) for the next 5 seconds (ChannelTime), the "Channel" effect of the spell is applied to your target.

I don't know if this is needed, but there could be an additional check here. A flag on the spell, "ChannelCompletion = TRUE/FALSE". If TRUE, the full channel duration would be required in order for the spell to continue. If the channel was canceled, the spell ends. If FALSE, the normal effects of the spell would occur when the channel ends, regardless of if it was canceled or not.

After the channel is done (or skipped if ChannelTime=0), the normal spell effects are triggered. With channeling, I imagine there would need to be a difference between normal spell effects and channeled spell effects that way you could have the channel do something different than the normal spell.

RecoveryTime would replace what was "CastTime", the number of seconds you must wait after casting a spell.

So, an example spell using all that

Spell=1
Name=Magic Missile Barrage
Description=Caster fires an array of missiles at a target, ending in a massive burst.
Skill=IDon'tKnowWeDon'tHaveSkillsYet
CastTime=0.5
ChannelTime=2.0
ChannelInterval=0.5
ChannelCompletion=TRUE
ChannelLife=-5
Life=-30

So, this skill would take half a second to wind up. Once started, it deals 5 damage every half second for 2 seconds. At the end of the channel time (and only if the channel was allowed to complete), another 30 damage is applied to the target.

It may be that spells could be organized differently to help with readability and prevent there from being so many properties.


Spell=1
Name=Magic Missile Barrage
Description=Caster fires an array of missiles at a target, ending in a massive burst.
Skill=IDon'tKnowWeDon'tHaveSkillsYet
CastTime=0.5
ChannelTime=2.0
ChannelInterval=0.5
ChannelCompletion=TRUE
Channel
Life=-5
Normal
Life=-30

So everything under the "Channel" marker are effects that happen at the ChannelInterval. Everything under the "Normal" marker are what happens after the channel is done.

Stuff could even be changed so that additional spell costs could be applied as you channel. Initial cost = 0, but it takes away 10 mana every half second for the duration. If you run out of mana, the spell ends.



Maybe all this just over complicates stuff.
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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2015, 02:32:12 pm »
I like the customizable spell idea. And runes I think should stay in to feel RPGWO-ish. The names of the 5 or so magic skills probably can be more generic and not so specific like Fire and Air. Could be like the rune names. Otherwise players will associate to strictly with a name, maybe, and spells could be limited. Like for a special effect that doesn't fall into any obvious magic skill catagory. Our we just ram them into a group.

I can see a spell combo being 1 to 10 runes. Any order and each one added increases skill needed to cast. Like 10-20 skill per rune. Plus each one has an effect. Mana cost would be 10 per rune. Cast time is 0.5 seconds per rune.

Example:
AON rune = fire bolt (Fire Magic)
BAH rune = wind bolt (Air Magic)
CUG rune = range  (Air Magic)
DUH rune = reduce mana cost (Spirit Magic)
ECU rune = blast or spread out (Water Magic) dis-forms so no mana cost?

Spell= AON
Effect= fire ball, range 5, 5-10 damage
SkilltoCast= 20 Fire
ManaCost= 10

Spell=AON AON
Effect= fire ball, range 5, 10-20 damage
SkilltoCast=40 Fire
ManaCost= 20

Spell=AON CUG
Effect=fire ball, range 10, 5-10 damage
SkilltoCast= 20 Fire, 20 Air
ManaCost= 20

Spell=DUH AON AON
Effect=fire ball, range 5, 10-20 damage
SkilltoCast=40 fire, 20 spirit
ManaCost= 10

Spell=CUG CUG DUH
Effect=no effect (earn XP though? might need to require a main effect rune to be valid spell)
SkilltoCast=40 Air, 20 Spirit
ManaCost= 10

Spell=BAH BAH BAH BAH BAH
Effect=wind bolt, range 5, Damage 25-50
SkilltoCast=100 Air
ManaCost= 50

Spell=ECU AON
Effect=fire blast, range = 1, damage=10-20
SkilltoCast=20 Water, 20 Fire
ManaCost= 10 (not 20 cuz ECU costs no mana?)

Would need to balance each magic skill so they have equal main effect and modifier runes. Each skill would cost 6 skill points in V1/V2 but in V6 it would be probably 4 skill points.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2015, 02:35:28 pm »
Spell=BAH BAH BAH BAH BAH
Effect=Summon an army of sheep

Fixed :P

So you're saying there would be no pre-made spells (and therefore nothing to research/discover), spells would just be fully customizable?

Also, are you saying there's only 1 rune per magic type or was that just an example?



I do worry a little bit about having it be 100% custom made spells. Kinda like.. if you can do anything, it loses a little bit of its meaning, you know?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 02:37:31 pm by Mongo »
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2015, 02:46:43 pm »
I feel like I'd rather see base spells already made and the runes used can modify how the spells behave. This allows you to ensure you can create the desired effects, plus allows the research/discovery of spells (an aspect some people thoroughly enjoy). Might just be me though.
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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2015, 03:03:27 pm »
I've always hated research for spells...and if you ask in global you usually get the combo you want. 

@Mickey, that system has goods and bads...while making it easier to get a few spells, it could also completely remove things needed for other spells(I'll point again at magic torch).  unless there is a rune for every single spell in game(too many) then some things won't work. 

But before spells can be decided, a system needs to be created to handle them.
I disagree, its easier to sort/organize things after you've seen a huge mess than it is to make plans for things then have no places for half of them.  if we come up with spells we like then work back it should be easier to understand what type of groupings will be needed.

as far as cast/channel/recovery times, is it just as a way to nerf magic?  I don't see that as something we need...an archer can shoot arrows as fast as they can load their bow, I think a sorcerer should be able to cast spells as quickly as they can recite their incantations(which actually could be based on number of runes in a spell).
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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2015, 03:13:22 pm »

I disagree, its easier to sort/organize things after you've seen a huge mess than it is to make plans for things then have no places for half of them.  if we come up with spells we like then work back it should be easier to understand what type of groupings will be needed.


Well, we know the sort of spells we should have. I like to work from the ground up, so rather than creating spells for which we don't know the runes that build them (what their names are, how many of them, what the composition is) or even really the types of magic.. seems like you'd be building walls without a foundation, only making it harder to try and get the foundation in there later.

as far as cast/channel/recovery times, is it just as a way to nerf magic?  I don't see that as something we need...an archer can shoot arrows as fast as they can load their bow, I think a sorcerer should be able to cast spells as quickly as they can recite their incantations(which actually could be based on number of runes in a spell).

Absolutely not. I love magic. I suggest the system because it allows you to add much more diversity to spells. Instead of all spells simply being "Press button, deal damage", you can have ones that are fast with lower damage, slow with higher damage, deal damage over time while the caster maintains the spells, etc. I expect the costs and effects of the spells would be changed to compensate for cast time and honestly I imagine most spells would have a very small cast time with 0 channel time.

It's not entirely fair to compare an archer and a caster in terms of releasing projectiles at the same frequency. At any point, a caster has a very wide arsenal of spells at their disposal. It makes logical sense that there might be a couple fractions of a second more time needed to prepare/invoke the spell. I'm not suggesting that spells need to be nerfed to compensate for having more choices, the damage and costs can be modified to compensate. It is simply a logical addition. If the player wants to create a spell that takes 5 seconds to cast but does some very substantial damage, I think that should be an option. Currently, it is not.
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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2015, 03:35:11 pm »
Well, a premade spell is basically a main effect rune by itself, like AON is fire bolt. Each main effect rune should be able to be used by itself.

Each magic skill would have many runes.

I do worry a little bit about having it be 100% custom made spells. Kinda like.. if you can do anything, it loses a little bit of its meaning, you know?

Not sure I understand.

@Greatest, yes, there would be a rune for Light effect. Probably in the Fire Magic group. We have 51 runes I think in V1/V2 so yeah there are a lot but not sure why that is bad.

Not sure about the cast/channel/recovery times. But I did add something like that to combat: client sends attack request, server does pre-attack code, server sends attack animation to clients and delays a 1/2 second, client get attack animation and does it, after delay the server processes attack and sends results, client shows damage/miss, then client cools down (not coded yet, based on weapon speed which I haven't added yet).
So, we can add a pre-cast time for animation/casting then a cool down time. But a spell that is a continual cast (channel time) like a flame thrower, well, I guess we can do it but not right away sine it seems like an advanced feature.
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Re: Magic in V6
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2015, 07:40:55 pm »
I've always felt the runes should act a bit more like a language - ie the first rune could be the meat of the spell, what it does. The subsequent runes modify that action in some manner, like one to determine its range of action, one for its range of effect, one for duration or power.

Though it might represent an overhaul of the magic system, it also offers a significantly simplified magic ini that will describe runes instead of spells and allow more dynamic spells.

 

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