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Offline Mongo

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Taking servers in a different direction?
« on: January 22, 2014, 09:23:19 am »
I have learned recently that I am nowhere near "Veteran" status. Liberty was my first server and I've played a good amount of time on maybe .. 7-8 others. For the most part .. all the servers seem to configure in the same way.

I know the "modern" servers have been done in the past and have had mixed reception. I applaud the creativity involved to completely re-work everything, but I honestly prefer the classic fantasy/medieval feel.

When the v1 server files were released, I thought "Great! Now is my chance to make something new and different! To push the game in ways no one else has!" I realized quickly I couldn't do what I wanted the way I wanted to do it. You can't equip a second weapon in the shield spot. To compensate, you can make a single item that represents two swords and is a 2 handed weapon. Add some usages to allow you to use a single sword on another single sword to combine them. It was kind of a messy workaround but it worked.

Then I wanted to make weapons that could also be used for casting spells. But the code didn't allow that.. either it was a wand and could cast spells or it was a weapon that could be used to attack. I got mildly discouraged after this, thinking the reason no server ever came out with anything new was because too much was hardcoded.

But I was browsing through the v2 stuff and .. it looks like quite a bit could be changed. Why have we always kept the red/white/black/blue magic systems? All the spells are generally the same, with a few additions. If you can't change the spells, you could at least modify the skills and what spells go with each. Mix it up a little bit. I can think of a few different ways they could be classified.

Read ancient? As far as I know, no one has really done anything with this yet. I feel like some skills could be combined, others could be reworked. The trap skill? Only time I've found this useful was in stealing servers. If it could be made to be actually useful in combat, more people might get it.

I understand that any changes to crafting is a big undertaking. Quite a bit of outlining would need to be done. I feel like the "best" way to tackle that would be to wipe out many existing items and usages and rebuild them from scratch. I can understand why people would want to avoid this.

Why is it every town always has a Bob the Collector and the crazy man who lost his marbles.. and the sewer with giant roaches, the mayor who lost the town charter to elves. Is it just because that's what people expect out of a RPGWO server?

Don't you have the freedom to modify the art/sound as you see fit as well? I feel like no one really takes advantage of this.

The idea here is not to criticize. I'm sure many people will take offense to this - that is not the intent. I am merely questioning why it hasn't been done. One obvious answer is .. takes too long. I accept that. I would never expect someone to cover everything above, especially if it's just 1-3 people starting up a server. And there have been changes and additions along the way. New types of ore have been added, new creatures, reworks of systems.. but .. I feel like 70-80% of the skills and usages have remained the same over 10 years. Maybe my memory is just failing me and the game has changed much more than I thought.

If you're thinking: It's much harder than you think - you're talking out of your ass - if you think it's so easy, you do it, etc etc.. I understand that. I wouldn't want to spend a ton of time working solo on a server for a game I don't think many people would play.

Anyways, anyone who has spent any good amount of time to design a server, any thoughts on this?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 09:28:41 am by Mongo »
Shoop!

Offline Roarion

Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2014, 01:14:32 pm »
I have learned recently that I am nowhere near "Veteran" status. Liberty was my first server and I've played a good amount of time on maybe .. 7-8 others. For the most part .. all the servers seem to configure in the same way.

I know the "modern" servers have been done in the past and have had mixed reception. I applaud the creativity involved to completely re-work everything, but I honestly prefer the classic fantasy/medieval feel.

When the v1 server files were released, I thought "Great! Now is my chance to make something new and different! To push the game in ways no one else has!" I realized quickly I couldn't do what I wanted the way I wanted to do it. You can't equip a second weapon in the shield spot. To compensate, you can make a single item that represents two swords and is a 2 handed weapon. Add some usages to allow you to use a single sword on another single sword to combine them. It was kind of a messy workaround but it worked.

Then I wanted to make weapons that could also be used for casting spells. But the code didn't allow that.. either it was a wand and could cast spells or it was a weapon that could be used to attack. I got mildly discouraged after this, thinking the reason no server ever came out with anything new was because too much was hardcoded.

But I was browsing through the v2 stuff and .. it looks like quite a bit could be changed. Why have we always kept the red/white/black/blue magic systems? All the spells are generally the same, with a few additions. If you can't change the spells, you could at least modify the skills and what spells go with each. Mix it up a little bit. I can think of a few different ways they could be classified.

Read ancient? As far as I know, no one has really done anything with this yet. I feel like some skills could be combined, others could be reworked. The trap skill? Only time I've found this useful was in stealing servers. If it could be made to be actually useful in combat, more people might get it.

I understand that any changes to crafting is a big undertaking. Quite a bit of outlining would need to be done. I feel like the "best" way to tackle that would be to wipe out many existing items and usages and rebuild them from scratch. I can understand why people would want to avoid this.

Why is it every town always has a Bob the Collector and the crazy man who lost his marbles.. and the sewer with giant roaches, the mayor who lost the town charter to elves. Is it just because that's what people expect out of a RPGWO server?

Don't you have the freedom to modify the art/sound as you see fit as well? I feel like no one really takes advantage of this.

The idea here is not to criticize. I'm sure many people will take offense to this - that is not the intent. I am merely questioning why it hasn't been done. One obvious answer is .. takes too long. I accept that. I would never expect someone to cover everything above, especially if it's just 1-3 people starting up a server. And there have been changes and additions along the way. New types of ore have been added, new creatures, reworks of systems.. but .. I feel like 70-80% of the skills and usages have remained the same over 10 years. Maybe my memory is just failing me and the game has changed much more than I thought.

If you're thinking: It's much harder than you think - you're talking out of your ass - if you think it's so easy, you do it, etc etc.. I understand that. I wouldn't want to spend a ton of time working solo on a server for a game I don't think many people would play.

Anyways, anyone who has spent any good amount of time to design a server, any thoughts on this?

-I've done a lot of the stuff you have mentioned above. It's hard to respond to all of your topics but you should download the Hex files and check them out.

-The reason is it's hard to spend a good amount of time to design a server when not many people are motivated and less then 5 players will play it to the end. Heck, if you look at my last quest in the files called DeathQuest it took me 10+ hours to make the entire thing and only 1 person has ever beaten it.

-Another reason can sometimes be players are hard to work with. I've had people come on the forums and say to me before, "Your server is bad because you do this!" When they never asked me to do anything about it or put up an appeal about it.

-The money and time sink. Sure I did it for fun, but I probably could of put that money into doing something else. Really ticked me off when I heard rumors of people selling damon on my server for 100+ $.

-People claim the admins are lazy because they don't see them online 24/7. Sometimes the players of RPGWO expect an admin to be available 24/7. It's a lot harder to catch people macroing/cheating when logging onto a normal admin also. I would say I have probably not checked the server/logged onto my admin less then 15 days this entire year and someone yelled at me once that everyone quit because I started logging onto the secret admin and gave 3 people temp bans for cheating.

-Finding someone trustworthy to admin with. Everyone always yells corruption and admin abuse, which eventually had me doing everything by myself on Hex.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 01:18:40 pm by Roarion »
Asylum - lvl 33 Thrower
Pyramid - lvl 40 Scythe
Dementia - lvl 69 Spear
Nexus V2 - lvl 61 Stealth
Rebirth - lvl 72 Bow
Ganymede - lvl 56 Mage
Hex - lvl 1000 Admin
Future - lvl 1000 Admin
Retired - Unless V6 pulls a miracle

Offline Mongo

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Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2014, 01:26:47 pm »
Yeah, I've already started to see some of that on Trinity (not the admin abuse, the accusations of it).
Shoop!

Offline Roarion

Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2014, 01:38:24 pm »
Yeah, I've already started to see some of that on Trinity (not the admin abuse, the accusations of it).

You can log onto that server?
Asylum - lvl 33 Thrower
Pyramid - lvl 40 Scythe
Dementia - lvl 69 Spear
Nexus V2 - lvl 61 Stealth
Rebirth - lvl 72 Bow
Ganymede - lvl 56 Mage
Hex - lvl 1000 Admin
Future - lvl 1000 Admin
Retired - Unless V6 pulls a miracle

Offline Mongo

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Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2014, 02:34:42 pm »
Yeah. Gotta manually download the files from

http://64.94.238.143/Trinity/

For some reason the updater doesn't work.
Shoop!

Offline Roarion

Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2014, 03:06:07 pm »
Yeah. Gotta manually download the files from

http://64.94.238.143/Trinity/

For some reason the updater doesn't work.

Oh OK thanks, world is a bit lacking right now for me to play it just skimming the files and the change-log. Maybe in a few updates and if they get the auto-updater working.
Asylum - lvl 33 Thrower
Pyramid - lvl 40 Scythe
Dementia - lvl 69 Spear
Nexus V2 - lvl 61 Stealth
Rebirth - lvl 72 Bow
Ganymede - lvl 56 Mage
Hex - lvl 1000 Admin
Future - lvl 1000 Admin
Retired - Unless V6 pulls a miracle

Offline Mongo

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Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2014, 01:49:47 pm »
I've started .. dabbling a bit with the .ini files. Creates a couple utilities to easily manipulate them, adding and removing properties through an interface rather than just editing a text file. Probably won't go anywhere as I usually end up abandoning projects after a couple weeks. I stripped down the .ini's and wanted to see what limits could be pushed, but a couple things confused me. I have found some help in your server files, Roarion, but it seemed to only touch on a few subjects.

skill.ini:
It seems to me that some of the skills are hardcoded. Run, Melee/Missile/Magic Defense, Mana conversion, Stealth, Swim, Scan, Deception, Assess, Tame and Climb .. for each of these, I can modify the skillpoints needed, the attributes it is affected by, whether players can train it and its description.  But it seems I cannot actually change what they do. The effect of how much magic defense actually defends per level doesn't seem configurable. Neither does run speed, or .. any of these. I can make items require these skills in order to use them, but that's about it. Right?

item.ini

Subtype: I have seen Class used in a couple instances, but I can't seem to find an example of where Subtype is used. Is it just used to help describe the type of item or is that value actually looked at anywhere?

AllowSurfaceGrowth: This doesn't seem to have anything to do with growing at all. From what I can see, this property simply allows the item to be (placed as the result of "SuccessFocus" in itemuse?) on a slope, used pretty much for fences. Is that true?

Group: I see many groups defined in the beginning of the item.ini. Are they used for anything?

MoveDirection: I only see this being used for "Sulfuric Gas". Does this cause the item to move by itself? What does the value represent?

Build/BuildWarp/Dungeon/DungeonWarp: These 4 all seem to contain a series of values. I'm guessing for build and dungeon, it's an ID followed by a set of coordinates and for the warps, its an ID followed by two sets of coordinates. No idea what they mean though.

I have more questions, but I'm not even sure these will be answered, so I'll end it here for now.
Shoop!

Offline Roarion

Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2014, 07:20:15 pm »
skill.ini:
It seems to me that some of the skills are hardcoded. Run, Melee/Missile/Magic Defense, Mana conversion, Stealth, Swim, Scan, Deception, Assess, Tame and Climb .. for each of these, I can modify the skillpoints needed, the attributes it is affected by, whether players can train it and its description.  But it seems I cannot actually change what they do. The effect of how much magic defense actually defends per level doesn't seem configurable. Neither does run speed, or .. any of these. I can make items require these skills in order to use them, but that's about it. Right?


Yep.

item.ini

Subtype: I have seen Class used in a couple instances, but I can't seem to find an example of where Subtype is used. Is it just used to help describe the type of item or is that value actually looked at anywhere?


Subtype is used to easily apply a lot of ini code to a specific set of items. In my files I used to to make IronItems. On all the IronItem items you can use a forging mallet on them to break them apart into iron ores again.

Group: I see many groups defined in the beginning of the item.ini. Are they used for anything?

Use them to define items a trader might sell in a popup window. I haven't used them much beyond that.

MoveDirection: I only see this being used for "Sulfuric Gas". Does this cause the item to move by itself? What does the value represent?
The distance the item can move around I think.

Build/BuildWarp/Dungeon/DungeonWarp: These 4 all seem to contain a series of values. I'm guessing for build and dungeon, it's an ID followed by a set of coordinates and for the warps, its an ID followed by two sets of coordinates. No idea what they mean though.
Dungeons are floating maps.
Asylum - lvl 33 Thrower
Pyramid - lvl 40 Scythe
Dementia - lvl 69 Spear
Nexus V2 - lvl 61 Stealth
Rebirth - lvl 72 Bow
Ganymede - lvl 56 Mage
Hex - lvl 1000 Admin
Future - lvl 1000 Admin
Retired - Unless V6 pulls a miracle

Offline Mongo

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Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2014, 10:33:19 am »
Interesting. Thanks for the response. There's a lot of stuff about all the "Growth" properties which are a bit confusing, but I think I can figure them out just by playing around.

One thing I wanted to test was requiring multiple skills to perform an action or equip an item. I haven't tested it yet but I feel like it would not accept multiple skill requirements. Would be a very interesting concept allowing for specializations in certain areas or combinations of skills.

Also, when running the server, there are several buttons which prompt for a password. What the hell is that? Why would I need a password to configure a server I'm running?
Shoop!

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2014, 10:43:41 am »
MoveDirection=<numpad direction>
Like 4 goes left, 8 goes up and I think 5 goes random, maybe it is 10 or whatever sulfuric gas is set to. I think when an item can't go in that direction it does a 180 turn and goes in opposite direction.

Password: client.dat
I had to put that on, I think, cuz the server.exe leaked and/or the RDP got hacked.
You may have conquered my worlds, but I destroyed them!

Offline Mongo

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Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2014, 12:01:33 pm »
MoveDirection=<numpad direction>
Like 4 goes left, 8 goes up and I think 5 goes random, maybe it is 10 or whatever sulfuric gas is set to. I think when an item can't go in that direction it does a 180 turn and goes in opposite direction.
Oh, nice. I had considered that, but it would have only made sense if it was 1-8 (or 0-7, as I tend to do). 10 kinda had me baffled.

Password: client.dat
I had to put that on, I think, cuz the server.exe leaked and/or the RDP got hacked.

Ahh. Yeah I couldn't understand why someone who had access to the server.exe would need a password. I guess RDP hacking would do it.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2014, 11:48:22 am »
Can itemuse definitions be stacked?

I can see that multiple uses with different skills can be used. Like.. shovel on ground with mining and/or fishing. If the player has both, they can choose what they want to do.

But what about like, for example (doesn't make much sense, just for concept)
Shovel on Ground with Mining(50) to get Small Dirt Pile
AND
Shovel on Ground with Mining(100) to get Large Dirt Pile

Would this cause errors? Would the game just ignore one of them?
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2014, 12:33:44 pm »
And a followup question.

I see for spells, there's a Variance value to allow for randomness. Is there nothing to allow for randomness in itemuse?

To follow up with that, a way to simulate randomness would be to have items randomly created with the same name. For instance, 5 items all called "Tree". Internally, they are different and will drop different items. However, externally, they all look the same to the player.

The problem comes in with the name. Will the exe have a problem with multiple items of the same name? I imagine you'd have to always reference them by the item number instead, but would this work?:

Item.ini
Item:100
Name: Tree
<whatever properties>

Item:101
Name: Tree
<different properties>

itemuse.ini
Itemuse
Itemtool=Hand
Itemfocus=100
SuccessItem=Apple

Itemuse
Itemtool=Hand
Itemfocus=101
SuccessItem=Turkey
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 12:35:50 pm by Mongo »
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Offline Roarion

Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2014, 12:38:09 pm »
Can itemuse definitions be stacked?

I can see that multiple uses with different skills can be used. Like.. shovel on ground with mining and/or fishing. If the player has both, they can choose what they want to do.

But what about like, for example (doesn't make much sense, just for concept)
Shovel on Ground with Mining(50) to get Small Dirt Pile
AND
Shovel on Ground with Mining(100) to get Large Dirt Pile

Would this cause errors? Would the game just ignore one of them?

This usage will make a popup window since there are multiple options. It's like the usage hot iron sheet on anvil. It will work.
Asylum - lvl 33 Thrower
Pyramid - lvl 40 Scythe
Dementia - lvl 69 Spear
Nexus V2 - lvl 61 Stealth
Rebirth - lvl 72 Bow
Ganymede - lvl 56 Mage
Hex - lvl 1000 Admin
Future - lvl 1000 Admin
Retired - Unless V6 pulls a miracle

Offline Mongo

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Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2014, 12:39:40 pm »
This usage will make a popup window since there are multiple options. It's like the usage hot iron sheet on anvil. It will work.

Ohh, right. Didn't even think of that
Shoop!

Offline Roarion

Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2014, 12:43:20 pm »
And a followup question.

I see for spells, there's a Variance value to allow for randomness. Is there nothing to allow for randomness in itemuse?

To follow up with that, a way to simulate randomness would be to have items randomly created with the same name. For instance, 5 items all called "Tree". Internally, they are different and will drop different items. However, externally, they all look the same to the player.

The problem comes in with the name. Will the exe have a problem with multiple items of the same name? I imagine you'd have to always reference them by the item number instead, but would this work?:

Item.ini
Item:100
Name: Tree
<whatever properties>

Item:101
Name: Tree
<different properties>

itemuse.ini
Itemuse
Itemtool=Hand
Itemfocus=100
SuccessItem=Apple

Itemuse
Itemtool=Hand
Itemfocus=101
SuccessItem=Turkey


There really is no randomness besides the way you did it. You have to use the numbers for items with the same name, so the code you put above will work.
Asylum - lvl 33 Thrower
Pyramid - lvl 40 Scythe
Dementia - lvl 69 Spear
Nexus V2 - lvl 61 Stealth
Rebirth - lvl 72 Bow
Ganymede - lvl 56 Mage
Hex - lvl 1000 Admin
Future - lvl 1000 Admin
Retired - Unless V6 pulls a miracle

Offline Mongo

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Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2014, 01:51:17 pm »
There really is no randomness besides the way you did it. You have to use the numbers for items with the same name, so the code you put above will work.

I can work with that :)
Thanks!

I know most of these questions could be answered by me simply TRYING them, I'm just looking at what can be done while I'm at work.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2014, 03:46:17 pm »
I'm still stuck on magic with the files I was reworking.  after seeing the questions you've asked I look forward to seeing what you come up with...getting a turkey from a tree ;D
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

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Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2014, 04:31:51 pm »
You should be using itemids anyway to reference.

Offline Mongo

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Re: Taking servers in a different direction?
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2014, 05:28:41 pm »
I'm still stuck on magic with the files I was reworking.  after seeing the questions you've asked I look forward to seeing what you come up with...getting a turkey from a tree ;D

Haha, it's not quite that wild. This really hasn't gone beyond "playing around".

You should be using itemids anyway to reference.

I agree, although it seems like most ini's don't follow that practice.
Shoop!

 

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