Author Topic: Movement - Animation and Functionality  (Read 8658 times)

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Offline Mongo

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Movement - Animation and Functionality
« on: June 11, 2012, 12:32:44 pm »
I noticed in the latest version, there's a player sprite that you can move around. What struck me as odd was the movement animation. When I say "animation", I know the player isn't yet animated to look like he's walking. I'm just referring to the .5 seconds between the time you press the left arrow and the time you re-gain control over your character.

I understand the point is to have the player strictly locked to the grid so that a player can only occupy one grid spot at a time and the player will always be in the center of the grid, but I feel that the 'animation' makes this messy.

Would it be possible to allow the sprite to move around in smaller intervals within a single grid block? I don't know if I'm explaining this properly, but right now you tap left and the player runs the full animation. I'm referring to having the player only move as long as the button is held down - the player would be able to stop anywhere in a single block and the players position, as far as object/effect location is considered, is still that same block).

So each block would be split into a grid of spaces that the player could walk on - the effect would be visual ONLY.

I can understand completely how this system may not work depending on how you handle player coordinates and player-player interaction. Specifically, what if Player A is at coordinates 0,1 at the top of the block and Player B is at coords 0,0 at the bottom of the block. Visually, you would see a huge space between the two players.. however since their coordinates are still only 1 apart, a dagger attack done towards the other player would still hit. This would be the case unless the subset of coordinates are considered.

Within each grid spot, there can be a second set of coordinates (0,0 - 10,10) to determine the players position within the block. This could be VERY MESSY and a complete pain.





Anyway, that's a lot of rambling coming from someone who doesn't know much about the specific coding of games. It just seemed like a long time for someone to not be in control of their character (and yes, I know it's an early version).

That's enough from me.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2012, 01:38:25 pm »
Addendum: I suppose if the entire world grid was made smaller it would solve this issue as well.. rather than a grid and a grid within that grid, just have each block be 1/10th the size that they are now. It would also allow for more dynamic placement of structures, thinner walls (no more 4' thick walls everywhere) and better player positioning.

However, as with all things, the smaller you go the harder it is to deal with. Suddenly there could be 10x more objects on the screen at once.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2012, 08:17:23 pm »
really?  think of it as being really slow and overburdenned in normal RPGWO, I'm sure you'll be faster once he actually adds a quickness value to our characters.
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2012, 12:44:37 pm »
I like the way Crossfire does it--You immediately move to the next space, but your sprite changes to represent stepping forward-feet together-other foot forward as you keep moving.

If you are going to stick with the movement from this tile to the next being seen in action, I do hope the run skill improves how fast the guy does it.

Offline Mongo

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Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2012, 01:16:23 pm »
If you are going to stick with the movement from this tile to the next being seen in action, I do hope the run skill improves how fast the guy does it.

I imagine it will... I can't see how else the run skill would improve movespeed.

I just thought it seemed a little .. 'clunky' (for lack of a better word) to have a player be in an un-interrupt-able state for the duration.
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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2012, 06:39:14 pm »
I understand, you want more map resolution. I thought about this already and decided it would be messy, difficult to line things up and would slow things down since every move approved by the server. I am still open to it but at every code update it will be harder to add later so need to figure out soon.

Probably not have a run skill. Everyone would walk around .25 seconds maybe, it is 1.0 right now. And a run mode would be added that used stamp to skip spaces when moving. Is my idea.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2012, 12:02:47 pm »
I'd think as long as it was divided by multiples of 2, it would still work as far as lining things up.

I'm assuming right now each wall part will fill up an entire square - those are huge walls! Divide it by 2 and now you have reasonable sized walls. Divide it again and you can have the wall fill 4 squares instead of two, keeping the actual image the same. All 4 "parts" of that same wall could be linked together so that if one is destroyed, they all are.. so it will look and function as though it was still a single piece... but now the player gets to move much better.

Can totally understand how this could be messy to implement.. especially if 4 separate objects are meant to function as a single object. And overall, I don't think it's that big of a deal, especially if players will move at 4x the current speed, just a thought.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2012, 09:05:34 pm »
...and now I have problems with movement!

if you rightclick to move a few spaces, the character moves 1 space, stops for about half a second, then moves another space, and another half second pause...anyway to remove the pauses between walking?

also "blocked by cypress bush" when you're clicking an easilly travelled line(grid seems to be diamond instead of squares so best I can describe this is: space beside tree is empty but clicking to move at an angle from the tree its still blocked) is annoying, are you leaving out pathfinding this version?

edit: the pause happens when holding the arrow buttons also...
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2012, 09:53:49 pm »
...and now I have problems with movement!

if you rightclick to move a few spaces, the character moves 1 space, stops for about half a second, then moves another space, and another half second pause...anyway to remove the pauses between walking?

also "blocked by cypress bush" when you're clicking an easilly travelled line(grid seems to be diamond instead of squares so best I can describe this is: space beside tree is empty but clicking to move at an angle from the tree its still blocked) is annoying, are you leaving out pathfinding this version?

edit: the pause happens when holding the arrow buttons also...

That would be lag I suppose: click - send move to server - lag1 - get move from server - animate to new spot - send move to server - lag2 - repeat
I could compensate for lag, like estimate when to do next "send move to server" ahead according to lag, so "get move from server" arrives about when the "animate to new spot" is done. Won't work for arrow keys though... well, i guess it can be done there too. An optimization to deal with later. I think you see most game so smooth cuz they don't wait for server approval but I need to cuz it sends new map content. Can't move to void but maybe we could try it some day.

Better pathfinding will come later. Like A* or something.
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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 10:08:28 pm »
Also, since we have player facing, doing instant turns doesn't seem right. I'll probably have a turn take some time, like 0.25 seconds per facing, so it will take 1.0 seconds (plus lag) to turn 180 degrees.

Was thinking of having different arrow/numpad key modes. The current way, turns you auto into the direction you press. There are cases where you would just want to step back ward or side step like in combat plus turning around move one space then turn around again takes too long and leaves your back side open to easier attack.

Thought about a mode where it more relational:
- Up moves player in direction facing
- Down steps backward in direction facing
- Left/Right turns 1 facing
- End/1 side step to left
- PageDown/3 side step to right
- Home/7 side step left diagonally forward ?
- PageUp/9 side step right diagonally forward ?
- Insert/0 spin 180 real fast

Would be an option/button to toggle modes like ENTER key.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 11:00:18 pm »
that last bit would be horrible for people playing on laptops since the keys aren't properly placed...might be ok if you add a few options to change keys around(which I think you mentioned somewhere).

also it doesn't take that long to turn around, how about a shorter delay on that?  how about .1 seconds for a 90 degree turn to either side and maybe .18(since you already have the momentum going) for a 180?  is it weird that I'm sitting here turning side to side to sort of time a turn?
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Kaios

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Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 11:41:55 pm »
Making movement even slower than it is now sounds like a horrible idea. Unless of course you plan on having a run skill (or some sort of other skill/attribute) which increases the speed of turns and other general movements in small increments at specific milestones.
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Offline gas

Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2012, 06:21:30 am »
Ye,thats what i believe caused most people to dislike v3 (including me).Everything was slow as $#%#

Offline Mongo

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Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2012, 08:19:20 am »
Ever play the original Quake? Fast paced, jump over walls without delay, spin around in circles at 400 rpm if you'd like.

Ever play any of the new Call of Duty games? You feel enpigbered. You need to lunge over walls, changing directions takes time.


Yes, the new Call of Duty games are popular .. does that mean they are better? Other games have done stuff with facing without an added delay. If you're worried about people running away while facing an enemy (to take less damage from the front), don't let players move in a direction they're not facing. Maybe there's no "face" button at all. The only way to change what direction you're facing in is to move in that direction. This prevents people from abusing a damage reduction from the front because they will have to turn around and take a step back to accomplish it.


As far as client/server communications in terms of "lag", I have noticed 2 systems in different games

Method A:
1) Client sends "move" request
2) Server gets "move" request. Sends "move approved" request. Player is moved server-side.
3) Client gets "move approved" request. Player is moved client-side.

Method B:
1) Client sends "move" request
2) Check is done client-side to see if any objects are in the way. If not, player is moved client-side.
3) Server gets "move" request. Sends "move approved" request. Player is moved server-side.
4) Client gets "move approved" request. If the client moved the player to a position they shouldn't have (or if a "move declined" message is sent), the player will be synced to the server.


In Method A, it is the most accurate version. Every piece of data is synced across the client and server. The client will never show the player as being somewhere they shouldn't be, but there will be a constant lag as everything is always 100% synced.

In Method B, this is the fastest version. Moves are performed clientside and synced up with the server AFTER. As long as the ability to perform basic checks is able to be done client-side, the player will be able to move. The requests to the server sync the location of the player server-side and sometimes adjust the player's position client-side if needed. This can cause some "jumping" around of the player if there's a mis-communication (or lag), however it is often used instead of a constant lag.
Shoop!

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2012, 11:30:18 am »
Making movement even slower than it is now sounds like a horrible idea. Unless of course you plan on having a run skill (or some sort of other skill/attribute) which increases the speed of turns and other general movements in small increments at specific milestones.

I think I will keep it at 1.0 second for walking 1 space with no stamina cost. Then I want a Run mode that skips 1-2 spaces per move while costing 1 stamina and taking the same 1.0 second. Not sure I want to do the "Run" skill but maybe I should now I think about it. It would reduce the 1.0 second delay I guess.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2012, 04:07:01 pm »
If you're worried about people running away while facing an enemy (to take less damage from the front), don't let players move in a direction they're not facing. Maybe there's no "face" button at all. The only way to change what direction you're facing in is to move in that direction. This prevents people from abusing a damage reduction from the front because they will have to turn around and take a step back to accomplish it.

backpeddling is an effective maneuver, why get rid of it?  have you ever watched a fencing match?  the people fencing are constantly moving back and forth to gain an advantage, but they never turn around when moving...

granted you can't move as fast backwards as you can forward, but its still more effective than turning around unless you really need to run away from something!

I think I will keep it at 1.0 second for walking 1 space with no stamina cost. Then I want a Run mode that skips 1-2 spaces per move while costing 1 stamina and taking the same 1.0 second. Not sure I want to do the "Run" skill but maybe I should now I think about it. It would reduce the 1.0 second delay I guess.

no Mickey....just NO! 

thats way too slow to move when you have to walk from 1 place to another, and when you add in run that 'skips spaces' its going to be overpowered(glitching over walls)....and still too slow.  do you realize thats over 3 minutes to walk across 1 sector...
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2012, 05:51:35 pm »
I think I will keep it at 1.0 second for walking 1 space with no stamina cost. Then I want a Run mode that skips 1-2 spaces per move while costing 1 stamina and taking the same 1.0 second. Not sure I want to do the "Run" skill but maybe I should now I think about it. It would reduce the 1.0 second delay I guess.

no Mickey....just NO! 

thats way too slow to move when you have to walk from 1 place to another, and when you add in run that 'skips spaces' its going to be overpowered(glitching over walls)....and still too slow.  do you realize thats over 3 minutes to walk across 1 sector...

So the world can't be big and have areas far away that actually take some time to get to?? In other games, it takes waaay longer to really get anywhere. 4 minutes per sector (includes lag), seems pretty sensible to me.
Or is it more of a death and item recovery issue? Lifestones could be scattered around, etc.
Otherwise, if you want to go collect some plant on the other side of the map, since you generally just play a pure trader right?, it would be right to actually take time and be an "adventure", or do I just not understand role playing games? heh

And, what about adding mounts and other fast ways to travel? You want walking to be the only thing? No warping or flying or Onyx Jumping or Kaios Riding, etc.

Plus, the Run feature would check for blocking things in the way, duh.

Anyways, we can fool around with various movement methods in coming months as things get busier.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2012, 08:56:35 pm »
ok mounts sound fun.  if you had brought that up sooner I think atleast 1/3 of this thread could have been avoided...and now we have to discuss mounts.  will these be creatures players have to tame/raise or will they be like mules were in older versions?

or do I just not understand role playing games? heh

seems like it at times :P
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Mongo

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Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2012, 07:59:30 am »
Honestly, my original gripe wasn't about speed. I'm all for not being able to zip around the world in 30 seconds. I just thought the lag/animation made movement feel clunky. Too much time spent in animations. Feels like a siege tank in Starcraft that needs to load and unload every time a move command is sent.
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Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Movement - Animation and Functionality
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2012, 10:53:18 pm »
granted you can't move as fast backwards as you can forward, but its still more effective than turning around unless you really need to run away from something!
Actually, the force of kicking the ground when running backwards seems to push me faster than when I go forwards, but it may be a skill that's mine alone.


 

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