Alchemy

[Greatest]

I remember the changes in the alchemy system you made in V3(which were neat), so I figured I'd bring up what I said in the V2 forum when you were looking for new ideas there, and hope we can get some changes in V4:

have alchemy based on mixing different chemicals instead of using plants(real alchemy instead of apothecary) and add a few ores that can be mined ground and mixed

example:
mine [ore1] grind it to get 10 [ore1] powder
mine [ore2] grind it to get 10 [ore2] powder
use [ore1] powder on [ore2] powder to get [ore1-ore2] mixture
use alembic on that to get a potion(or maybe 2)

with it done this way you would only have to add a few new ores since each ore can mix with another to make something new(5 new ores will give you 20 combinations)

I'd still like to see some new stuff added to alchemy where its not just 'harvest this make potion'.  with the mineral idea I offered for mining, you could actually add these easier, just have the stuff for alchemy as byproducts of 'cleaning' ore...

[Tokoshoran]

byproducts of 'cleaning' ore...

So you're suggesting the clusters of 'tainted' ore (could be tainted with simply dirt or additional stone) and removing the taint gives the "Dust" or small chunks that are ground into it?

Would be neat to be able to take the dusts and combine them into new metals like bronze. Smelt dust piles into ingots to make stuff with them. Through an expanded usage you could have a quarter-full crucible, half-full, three-fourths full, and full before you can actually smelt it into metal

[Greatest]

lol a bunch of alloys will complicate the game for no real reason...but it does sound neat.

I wasn't talking about tainted ore, Mickey seemed to like the mineral idea(rocks made up of different bits of stuff you do whatever to it and get the parts).  with minerals he can easilly just add different bits for players to gather when they're broken down.  I have no idea what could be used to break down into the things we need, and for the alchemy usages I don't really know what we'd need...but the idea fits into the game and works well for what alchemy really is.

[Tokoshoran]

lol a bunch of alloys will complicate the game for no real reason...but it does sound neat.

I wasn't talking about tainted ore, Mickey seemed to like the mineral idea(rocks made up of different bits of stuff you do whatever to it and get the parts).  with minerals he can easilly just add different bits for players to gather when they're broken down.  I have no idea what could be used to break down into the things we need, and for the alchemy usages I don't really know what we'd need...but the idea fits into the game and works well for what alchemy really is.

Oh, so it's more just that grinding it into a powder lets you use it to make more types of potions? Still, having to fill a crucible up with the dust in order to have enough for an ingot sounds good. Additionally, there should still be a primary ore inside it so that you can stockpile dusts and still make ingots.

Rather than having potions as predefined items, maybe they can be "Item #x +y" where Y would be the sum of all the benefits (1, 2, 4, 8, 16 type numbers for each effect, so a sum never becomes a different effect). Item X would be a usable potion, and Y tells the game what all it boosts/restores. It could even swap what numbers are what effect after a wipe so that players can't just pick up a potion and know the effect.

If it is "Potion #Y" and the effects of Y change after a wipe, then maybe a player with sufficient alchemy skill level can identify what it does just by looking at it. There would have to be a list of what levels of alchemy are required to figure out what effects--they could maybe tell "This potion will damage health," but not "This potion will increase health regeneration"--they'd assume it's a harmful potion, equip it to the ammo slot, and throw it at an enemy.

Speaking of which, can we get that? I'd like to be able to make malicious potions that I can equip as an ammo and throw--a fire oil could maybe do fire damage and an ice oil ice damage, for example. A mana charge could increase the powers of certain classes of monsters, making it useful for getting better training or enhancing your tames. A healing potion would of course heal the target, making it useful to throw at allies.
*shatter*
"Ow what'd you smash that bottle over my head for?!"
"I was trying to heal you!"

[Mickey Kudlo]

I like the idea of minerals and some kinda of "mixology" involved. Maybe use a caldron as the final mixing place.
We could have all sorts of minerals like silica, sulfur, bauxite, gypsum, etc. You could get some <mineral> ore, grind it with a mortar and pestal to get the <mineral> dust. Then the organic element from a plant you grind up as well.
Then add water to a caldron, put caldron on the fire until it is hot/boiling then you add the two ingredients to get an affect then use a empty bottle to collect some. Probably be able to make 10 potions from one caldron or something. Either the mixing would be random like how runes got scrambled at start of a world or have some kinda combo/affect list.

An alembic could be used to make purified mineral dust and/or purified <plant> essence/oil. It would deal with any taint I guess.

Empty bottles would need to be glass blown and made from silica/sand.

Arming them as throwing ammo sounds good but potions like heal when thrown would only do like 50% heal since it being "poured" on a person and not drank?

The caldron would be interesting to code too since it would act like a container that you can only put stuff into but also changes color depending on what is in it. So it has hot water, sulfur and red rose oil in it then wait a minute for it to cook then it becomes 10 Harm Liquids. Maybe need to stir it as last step instead of waiting.
Also, potion coding would be like the dynamic weapons. Just need 1 potion defined in .ini file then it gets a modified name based on what it does. Like Minor Healing Potion has 2 modifiers: minor(level 1) and healing (heals target). Major Flaming Poison Potion has 3 modifiers: Major (level 2), Flaming (fire damage), poison (poison damage). Probably get rid of Minor, Major, Mega names and use I, II, III, IV, V, etc, like "Healing Potion I" then it matches the spell names.

[Greatest]

*shatter*
"Ow what'd you smash that bottle over my head for?!"
"I was trying to heal you!"

...you have problems, but I like the idea!  maybe modify it so you're not  throwing the actual potions, but make some type of item that acts as a delivery system.  the only thing that really comes to mind for the delivery system is blowdarts,  but that would be more of a weapon skill right?

Major Flaming Poison Potion has 3 modifiers: Major (level 2), Flaming (fire damage), poison (poison damage).

that sounds badass, and is a bit farther than what I was hoping for(yay).  so if thats not an actual potion we can make when you're done I'm going to be disappointed.

[Greatest]

as soon as I hit post that episode of deadliest warrior with the Ninja popped in my head.  how about a black egg type delivery system?  it still seems like it would be tied into throwing though...

[Mickey Kudlo]

Yeah throwing skill is for anything... Thrown, heh.
Seems more like a weapon, not a positive delivery but we'll see.
Oh, also my aim skill idea too.

[Greatest]

what about a skill similar to first aid?  you could completely remove first aid since its sort of useless add those usages and ability to use malicious potions to a new skill.  you could use healing potions on an ally, or sneak up and use a damaging potion on some guy you don't like(pk only).  downside is we'd need a new type of defense for stuff like that, unless you want poisoners to be able to run rampant.

[Tokoshoran]

Does melee/ranged defense not apply when you are hit by somebody in stealth mode?

Guard/Dodge (the  new Melee/Magic-and-Missile defenses, respectively) could easily apply to stealth actions, and Guard would be used to block a melee poured potion or Dodge to avoid a thrown one.

[Mickey Kudlo]

Seems like if you try to pour a potion on someone, it becomes a melee attack which can be defended normally. Anything thrown would be a missle attack and Dodge/Missle Def Skill would come into play.

[Greatest]

I was thinking less that the potion was being poured on someone and more along the lines of you're sneaking up trying to force it down their throat...but I guess it works with pouring it on someone

[Mongo]

I like the whole throwing potions ideas. Stock up on a bunch of them and throw them like grenades.

As far as making potions.. I hate to keep bringing Oblivion into this but they had a neat system where each ingredient had 4 'effects' to them. I believe you could combine up to 4 ingredients. If any of the ingredients had a matching effect, it would be added to the potion.

For example (using RPGWO-based effects and ingredients and changing it slightly)

Germ Weed
1) Restore Health
2) Damage Stamina
3) Fortify Blue Magic
4) Nova

Gyro
1) Restore Mana
2) Damage Stamina
3) Warmth
4) Cure Poison

Fire Weed
1) Ice
2) Restore Stamina
3) Fortify Blue Magic
4) Harm

Ok, so in combining these, the matching effects would be Damage Stamina and Fortify Blue Magic. Obviously you could remove the first ingredient and you'd get a potion that only fortified blue magic and didn't damage stamina, but that's not the point.

For each repetition of the effect, it becomes more powerful. So here, we have Fortify Blue Magic twice, giving you a standard level 1 potion. You could have 4x Fortify Blue Magic's there, giving you a level 3 potion.

In Oblivion, I think you start off only knowing the #1 effect of each ingredient and the others are unlocked if you were to discover them while mixing other ingredients. Ex:

Ingredient 1
1) Restore health
2) (Not yet known, but it is Restore mana)
3)
4)

Ingredient 2
1) Restore health
2) Restore Stamina
3)
4)

Ingredient 3
1) Restore Stamina
2) Not yet known, but it is Restore Mana
3)
4)

The player combines these in the hopes of making a potion to restore health and stamina, but also discovers the "Restore Mana" effect on ingredients 1 and 3 (and it is added to the potion).


Overall, this system is probably WAY too similar to Oblivion's to be implemented, but I like the idea of combining different ingredients in different ways to make customizable potions. Many times there's a tradeoff where you can make a powerful health potion but it depletes another skill.

As far as using ore as ingredients goes .. I don't know. It depends on how connected skills and attributes are. If Mining is STRENGTH and alchemy is INT+DEX .. it will be tough for alchemists to get their ingredients.

I think I'm just rambling at this point so I don't have to do work.


Edit: Lol @ faces.. didn't realize 3 "?"'s would do that. Oh well.

[Tokoshoran]

Morrowind had a similar system, but to discover the newer properties you needed a higher alchemy skill. If you were looking at what potion the ingredients would make, it would show you all the effects, not just the ones per skill level. Additionally, while rare, there were a few ingredients that had five abilities to them.

If you want to customize this for RPGWO and implement it, making it so the alchemist can only use the ones they know about, or can block out those they don't want with enough skill (or even block out only those they know about, with the chances of success based on skill) would work. Earlier on, an alchemist would have to stack the same ingredient (Slot 1 and slot 2 have it), which could probably result in a "Minimal" potion, with less effect than even the minor.

I, personally, like the one-for-one system, although mixing more than one single-ability ingredient together could speed alchemy up, skip past having to add gyro to a germ weed potion.

[Mickey Kudlo]

Doesn't really matter which game had it first. Everyone copies everyone. Elder Scrolls probably got it from someplace else like an AD&D book or something. I mean really, who ever came up with the idea of combat in an RPG should be one rich bitch!.... But they ain't.

All I would end up doing is adding 4 effects to an ingredient and require at least 2 ingredients that had a match to get an effect. I like the idea. The more ingredients you add, the more skill needed plus each ingredient would have its own skill requirement.

Knowing the effects would be like runes. The system never tells you what the effect of a rune is. You figure it out by the spell combo. We could have an alchemy book that has all the recipes/mixes you have discovered then you can add your notes to it or just imply the meaning like with runes.

Maybe minerals would be an activator or booster or some sort.

[Greatest]

that sounds weird to me.  having to match 2 of the same things to get a potion isn't how things work.  you mix things so they react to each other not because they have the same stuff.

I mean you mix lye and baking soda(both bases) you get a weird mush, but if you mix either of those with vinegar whooosh!

[Tokoshoran]

that sounds weird to me.  having to match 2 of the same things to get a potion isn't how things work.  you mix things so they react to each other not because they have the same stuff.

I mean you mix lye and baking soda(both bases) you get a weird mush, but if you mix either of those with vinegar whooosh!

Think of it that they each have chemicals that react to the other ingredient's chemicals to cause that effect.

[Mickey Kudlo]

that sounds weird to me.  having to match 2 of the same things to get a potion isn't how things work.  you mix things so they react to each other not because they have the same stuff.

I mean you mix lye and baking soda(both bases) you get a weird mush, but if you mix either of those with vinegar whooosh!

Think of it that they each have chemicals that react to the other ingredient's chemicals to cause that effect.

Right, they have the chemical when brought together gives you the effect. I really like this idea cuz it gives alchemist a challenge plus game secrets to sell to others.

[Greatest]

I just got up to go to the bathroom and this idea popped in my head on the way back to bed:

time release potions!  for instance you take a life potion, instead of it giving full heal effect immediately it would give a partial effect, plus a buff to your life recovery.  example you drink/eat a minor life potion(those heal for 30 right?) instead of getting a full heal you'll get 10 life points back immediately, then 5 per tick for a minute or so.  this effect could also be used for mana and stamina potions.  it would make them a little better over time, but  not as good right away(and keep a guy with a stack of 500 pots on a hotkey from being able to be killed).

this wouldn't work with normal attribute or skill potions, but I like the idea so I had to post it.

[Tokoshoran]

I like the idea of a "Chemist" skill that improves your personal use of potions.