Author Topic: Magic  (Read 16866 times)

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Offline Tokoshoran

Magic
« on: May 10, 2012, 12:06:17 pm »
I've seen a lot of complaints about magic as I look around the forums or play the game, especially on the subject of Blue Magic.

Now, I don't know if people are just whining because, hey, people whine, or if there's a legitimate reason to this, but there have been complaints that the golems are too powerful. If they really are overly easy to make, maybe they can be made more difficult? Having to construct the body before making it alive sounds very reasonable. Maybe even having to start with a mud golem, level it up, and then upgrade it with copper (I believe that's the next stage), rinse and repeat for higher metals. Or perhaps player made golems always start at level 1, so that they have to be carried through to their usefulness.

White magic is fairly powerful as it is, I don't see much need to change it. Same with Black Magic.

Red magic is a bit confusing to me. It improves the player's attributes and skills, right? I think this could use some ties into alchemy. If you were to cast some spells onto the potions made, you could make them even stronger (Minor+ and Major+). If it could make charges to give the effect to other players at a later time, even, that would be useful. I understand this can cause some debate as to whether to use alchemy or red magic, but sometimes I just want both, despite no red mages being on.

Finally, we seem to be lacking in any area based magic. I brought it up in suggestions that we could have "Yellow Magic" which would be cast upon an area. It's a bit difficult to imagine how to mix this in, since it would cover the same things as the other skills, but since we're already starting with all the skills it wouldn't be so difficult. Yellow magic would simply allow the player to use multiple (nine?) runes at once to cast upon a whole area instead of one square. It could even be made less cost effective by increasing the cost-per-square (ten?), so that there's less incentive to use it outside of emergencies.

  • Are golems tough to make?
  • If not, make them tough
  • Red Magic vs Alchemy
  • Red Magic helping Alchemy
  • Red Magic produces "Charges"
  • "Yellow" area based magic tying into the other classes

I swear if this list is still broken after I hit post I'm going to be so mad.

EDIT: Fixed by Mickey
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 12:49:01 pm by Mickey Kudlo »

Offline Greatest

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Re: Magic
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2012, 06:00:41 pm »
the thing with red magic and potions being 2 seperate skills means you get more bonuses(hero and attribute spells + attribute pots and skill pot).  if you're manipulating an item it would not be red magic, blue magic has already been defined as item manipulation.  I don't think red should be changed, its good the way it is.  also there is another part to red magic, reducing skills(nova is opposite of hero and the rest are just penalties so no point listing them). 

white magic is far overpowered, it has spells like harm, freeze, blind, poison, and a few other nasties(poison + life denial is way bad assed).  these costs more mana than black magic spells, but who really cares about mana costs when mana potions are usually 1 of the cheapest potions, and mana conversion cuts the costs in half.  maybe those types of spells should be removed from white magic, but since these are awesome spells I'd still like to see them in the game(but adding them to black magic would make it overpowered).

to make a golem you research the spell, grab an ore, and cast the spell on it...simple!  your idea of having to form golems before casting the spell would be better, but what skill would it need?  would it make it impossible for some players to get golems if noone will sell them the items they need?  out of all your post the thing that really caught my eye was upgrading golems from mud...this could be very useful in some ways, but problematic in others.  does each metal have to be added to the golem to get it to the higher levels?  how would you make giant golems?  I like the general idea but it would need alot of thought to get it really planned out well.

as far as area effect spells, I think there are a few in black magic...pretty sure there is atleast 1.  also magic wall(blue magic spell) at higher levels makes more than 1 wall section so it is sort of an area effect spell.

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Offline Mystic

Re: Magic
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2012, 06:07:58 pm »
I was never a magic nut, but yeah, magic needs an overhaul.

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Magic
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2012, 06:29:28 pm »
I posted a little about this somewhere.
I was thinking of an all new system without runes.
It is a channelling of magical elements: fire, water, air, earth, spirit, light, shadow, etc. I guess I am getting the idea from the Wheel of Time series. Research is combining the different flows into effects to learn a spell. Each one of the flows is a Skill like "Magical Fire", "Magical Water", etc. Wands wouldn't be required but if used would boost the spell effect or lower spell difficulty in casting. Weapons could have wand ability too. Just an idea to think about/try early on.

I don't think I ever saw a blue mage walking around with an army of golems. Plus higher level ones meant sacrificing a high level ore which u never got back if it died. I gues my point is, creating golem sis fine the way it is?

Area of effect was the firestorm spell.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Magic
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2012, 06:44:30 pm »
I've walked around with an army of golems a few times...its helpful when you need to go to/from town and you're playing a server with gravynn clones(which are always far more powerful than me since they have 50 defenses and my attack/defense is set at 10, and they outnumber me 5:1...I hate those things), but enough about that.

does that mean for instance you could try to combine fire and air to get some type of explosion(condese the O2 in the air then ignite it)?  how would magical boosts work?  how would spells like heal and cure work?

I remember you posting that but a lot of the stuff thats been said is jumbled up and in threads on other stuff :P
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Offline Mystic

Re: Magic
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2012, 08:43:28 pm »
How about learning magic through scrolls or when you get your magic level to a certain point?

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Magic
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2012, 09:15:57 pm »
I guess a Heal combo would be like Spirit, Earth and Water.
A fireball would just be Fire.
Magic Torch could be Fire, Earth and Air.
Skill Boosts could be Spirit and Fire.

Hmm, it sounds pretty limiting and probably logically confusing for research. I am not feeling the love for this like I used too now, heh.

Maybe keep the current combo system with runes but change it to Mantras. Short, single syllable words. Put them together to get a spell. Learn them from scrolls that players or NPCs write. Some monsters drop them maybe.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Magic
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2012, 05:59:16 am »
how about a blending of the 2? 

you have the earth wind and fire and others available, but they don't have to be used as part of the spell.  learn spells normally, then have a spell upgrade interface.  in the interface you choose which elements to use with a spell, can choose any element but each would have a different effect or penalty to the spell. 

some upgrades could be:
someone using a fireball can 'infuse' it with fire elements and make it more powerful
infusing fireball with earth would cause something like lava so the target would take residual damage from it(maybe 10% of the spell damage hits 2-3 times after the spell was cast?)
someone creating a golem can 'infuse' with earth to get more defense and fire to get more attack making a stronger golem

...of course each element you add to a spell would increase the mana costs and skill  level required to cast, and adding conflicting elements would cancel each other out(so no fire and water bonuses on same spell).  penalties on the system could be simple stuff like using water element with a fireball spell making the spell fizzle(or it could create steam and causing a blind type effect? so no damage but still a spell?), or adding earth to an electrical spell(lightning) since most rocks aren't good conducters it would decrease the damage or make it fizzle.
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Offline Novibear

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Re: Magic
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2012, 09:32:29 am »
Yeah it would make since if you could upgrade spells or maybe wasn't that passible with the rune/research
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Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Magic
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2012, 12:07:48 pm »
Actually, I like the idea of having separate elements. I've referenced Well of Souls once before in another thread, specifically the magic web:

In order to learn new spells, you would have to spend points to buy them, and in order to use them, you'd need your elements at certain levels.

Other than that, looking at it how you wanted it, how is that form of research any more confusing than the runes? People had to work, hard, to figure out all the rune combos. Once they figured them out, they helped others know about them.

Once people figure out which elements to toss into the pot together, it'll become common knowledge.

Offline Novibear

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Re: Magic
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2012, 12:36:15 pm »
I once asked for help but not a single wizard was on the server and everyone said google it.
I play on and off

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Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Magic
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2012, 07:49:04 pm »
I once asked for help but not a single wizard was on the server and everyone said google it.

How to figure out spells: Start a new character who starts with magic. Write down rune combos. Give combos to other char, and figure out how to upgrade from there.

If the combos are going to be elements, it makes it a lot simpler, since there's less to choose from--although you may have to use the same one more than once, and fire-earth would probably be different than earth-fire.

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Magic
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2012, 09:49:04 pm »
The issue with the elements idea is, you can't scramble the rune combos after a wipe. Heh, I guess players will like that then :)
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Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Magic
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2012, 03:51:39 pm »
The issue with the elements idea is, you can't scramble the rune combos after a wipe. Heh, I guess players will like that then :)

Well, you could, to a lesser extent, by giving them bizarre names.

It wouldn't be too hard for people to figure out which one is which element, though.

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Magic
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2012, 02:32:08 am »
The issue with the elements idea is, you can't scramble the rune combos after a wipe. Heh, I guess players will like that then :)

Well, you could, to a lesser extent, by giving them bizarre names.

It wouldn't be too tough for people to figure out which one is which element, though.

You mean names like: Aon, Buh, Coh, etc?  :)
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Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Magic
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2012, 10:38:25 am »
Yeah. But as people experimented with the starter elements, they'd figure out which one's which fast.

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Re: Magic
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2012, 10:49:58 am »
wow we went full circle...

lets start from scratch, I had an idea for a game I made a few years ago(the magic part failed horribly on me, but maybe you're a better programmer) to make magic something extremely easy to use, but still have the system complex.  you can even still use the elemental system with it, but let the players design their own spells!  you'd have to get rid of the different branches of magic, and maybe group them together in 1 skill and increase the cost...

say 1 person wants a spell thats fast casting, with a low mana cost, they can design it and can cast it(if they have enough magic skill).  another player wants a spell thats high damage and has area effect, they can design it.  this would probably need a new magic interface with some sliders and tick boxes(or drop down selections to make it less cluttered) so different options can be chosen, adjusting 1 slider would move other sliders(like increasing damage would increase skill needed to cast, but decreasing range would decrease mana cost?).  this way each mage has their own unique spells, but new players aren't discouraged from magic because of the research system.

the basic sliders needed would be:
damage
mana cost
range
skill needed

other things that would have to be selected would be things like:
main drop down box:
attack
buff
heal
enchant

you could use a tick box for targeting(self, other, object)...the only real problem I see with a system like this would be using the create golem spell
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Magic
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2012, 12:18:30 pm »
Wow, I like that idea of "forming" your own spells. Golem can be done, it is just an item transform to monster spell.
But basically you're letting players edit their own magic.ini file. Then they can write scrolls and sell them too.
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Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Magic
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2012, 03:43:35 pm »
That sounds incredibly like Morrowind. You have to know a spell to make one in Morrowind, but once you aquire an element, you can make a spell based on it. Target, self, or touch were the options in it, touch should be removed (Change it to a self/other choice) since we're on a grid, not a full 3D open world.

Increasing the minimum damage, maximum damage, range, and area would increase the cost of it both gold and magicka. If you attatch the gold cost to RPGWO's spells, it would make it harder to get super strong spells ("Wild" spells would be more popular due to a cheaper cost, but they come with a lower minimum power).

In order to prevent mass scroll writing, there should be a mana cost and a stacking regen penalty to writing them--If you write a bunch, you'll find yourself drained of mana, even if you used potions, until you let the drains wear off. This would prevent somebody from just writing a whole stack worth of them at once.

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Re: Magic
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2012, 06:51:51 pm »
never played Morrowind, though the name sounds familiar...I don't think there should be a gold cost to casting spells, it would mean you have to carry around gold to use magic(and carrying around gold for anything is a bad idea).  I don't think there needs to be a big penalty to writing spell scrolls/tomes/grimoires(for more powerful spells?  or maybe they could be multiuse but finite?).  maybe it could take twice the mana to write them as it would to cast them, but since they work the same way as a spell when used theres no real reason to penalize the writer. 

the idea of aquiring elements and somehow attaching them to spells could be interesting...I could also see sigils(I brought those up somewhere) being used with spells to increase effect without increasing mana costs or raising skill required.  I guess sigils would need some restrictions also so spells don't get too overpowered. 

now since I brought sigils up again, anyone want to think up some basic sigils?  also crafting sigils, would that be something new for jeweler?  if there were only a few of them I could see them being quest only items, though this would be painful for those of us who only use support magic and can't actually kill anything...
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

 

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