Author Topic: Gawds, Prayers and Karma  (Read 5263 times)

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Offline Mickey Kudlo

Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« on: May 03, 2012, 02:26:40 pm »
I want to bring the Gawds back. V1 had them for a time but they were mostly admin controlled and scripted. I want real coding for this and for it to be significant like magic.
Don't think we will have Karma Scrolls but you'll be able to sacrifice anything to gain karma, maybe. Then you spend karma on prayers that the gawds hear but depending on your relationship with the gawd, they answer the prayer or not.
Would need a gawd statue to worship at to gain karma. Temples would have them. You could gain them from the gawd then be able to worship at your house.
Prayers would go beyond magic like: dispell undead, animate dead, create food, iron into gold, etc. There was alike 5 prayers per gawd and there were 3 or 4 gawds. I think that a good number for gawds but, well, don't know. Probably each gawd will be specialized like: plants, animals, death, life, earth, air, fire, water, spirit, building, etc.
Karma would show up under the Mana bar as purple I guess. Max based on level or wisdom maybe.
Prayers would be learned from read ancient or given to you from the gawds.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 08:56:57 pm »
instead of temples, how about shrines?  players build shrines(dedicated to 1 gawd), basic shrine would be a stone you work with masonry to turn it into an altar type thing.  it can then be built up with boards using carpentry for level 2, upgrade it with cloth and tailoring for level 3, and use gold on it with jewelry making for level 4...or some other way with other stuff and other skills

higher level shrines gets you higher rewards when sacrificing stuff...gives you a way to let players be priests if they want by letting others use the shrines they own.

I think the prayers should be changed alot though.  some are worthless and others are too powerful.  also each gawd should have fewer prayers...same amount each, but all more useful(not stuff you can always just go buy).

ie(all for a few hours each):
gawd of life: to increase your armor level, and to cure/prevent poison.
gawd of death: to increase your attack damage, and to add poison to your attack
gawd of nature: to add stam/stam renewal, and to increase harvests(more stuff from harvesting)
gawd of fire: to make better quality food/smithed goods, and to see in the dark(?)
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Offline Zachariel

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Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2012, 03:48:50 am »
You could tie Gawds with morale through "Faith" skill.

The higher the Faith skill, the larger morale bonus the player receives when praying.
Also, higher Faith allows the char to pray or hope for events with larger effects,
but the chance of the effect happening should always be somewhat random.

If you want to implement both karma and morale, there will be two more "bulbs" in addition to
vitality and mana and this might make the game overly complicated.

From a rational perspective, Gawds should be related with "Faith" skill.
If you implement Gawds with karma, then this is an exact opposite of what Buddhists portray karma as.
(Yes, i understand that in RPGWO context, "karma" is only a name to represent a game mechanic)
By Buddhist mythology, we are all part of the singularity which is god, but we have forgotten our connection
with the eternal One.
Karma portrays the mans' inability to make up his mind, eternally choosing between different outcomes,
which appear either "good" or "bad", thus giving the impression that everything must be in balance.
If everything were in balance, this universe would not exist (read matter/antimatter dilemma).

Keep in mind, that the more features you add, the more you have to code and even after you have
finished coding, all of the game parts should be balanced with each other to prevent dominant
strategy options (the number 1 game diversity killer, since what is the point of using less-powerful
choices, when there is one or more universally good choice available to the player).

EDIT:
Also, if you implement Gawds the way you described them in OP, it would be just another magic system
with different names. What is the gameplay benefit in that? You just separate certain magic from other magic
and fragment the options available to the player.
If you want the players to truly have fun with worshiping Gawds, the core game mechanic should be very
different from the standard mana-spell-magic mechanic.

My suggestion:
Make Gawds a passive effect through "Faith" skill. This means, that the player can not directly choose the
specific effects of worshiping his gods will cause. Instead, the game AI should randomly create game events
depending on the player faith skill and the god he is worshiping.
For example, worshiping Gawd of Luck will randomly increase loot chance and quantity from chests and critical
damage and hit chance, hitting an ore vein, digging up a treasure, successfully creating a potion, farming seeds, etc.
If you want, you can even diversify it with God of Plentiful, which governs farming, God of Mountains, which governs
mining, God of Transmutation, which governs alchemy.

The player can increase the odds of a favourable outcome for whatever he is doing through a prayer, but it should
depend on the Faith skill and give no direct indication of a received bonus (no visual +1 or whatever indication) that
the prayer works or for how long the player has the bonus for.
Also, the prayer effect should be calculated separately for each action, not granting the user a +1 bonus buff for say 30 minutes.

Praying to Gawds in this sense is also fun and useful, when the prayer reduces the odds of meeting monsters in the forest.
This would mean that players with high Faith, who have prayed to the Gawd of Safe Journeys, can lead caravans through
dangerous terrain.

The options are endless. Basically, the Gawds favour can effect all other skills and game mechanics this way.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 04:04:24 am by Zachariel »

Offline Mickey Kudlo

Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2012, 10:22:56 am »
hmm, so no prayers, just worship at altar/shrine and you get some kinda of uncontrolled effect. Like God Of War may boost combat skills or boost/change your weapon or may warp you into the middle of a cluster of monsters, heh. That would make it different from magic for sure.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2012, 10:25:43 am »
I like it.
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Offline Novibear

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Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2012, 08:33:38 am »
Sounds cool to me
I play on and off

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Offline Greatest

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Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2012, 08:51:16 am »
the 'related topics' thing at the bottom of this page had an idea I like(those things usually have nothing to do with the topic you're reading)...

I said making a shrine at home could allow you to become a priest by allowing others to visit, in his post Malekith(haven't seen him in years) mentions dedicating part of your land to a gawd.  if you add the 2 ideas together build and upgrade your shrine and dedicate it to the gawd it would be open for anyone to use and you'd still own it...but its unusable for other things(like farming)

I know it would take some weird coding, but if you could dedicate a 5X5 section of your land as a 'holy sight' with a shrine and some aesthetic items it would go farther towards allowing people to be priests...and you could get a bonus for people using your shrine/holy sight, maybe 25% of whatever bonus they get you also get(would be easier to calculate with karma) so if someone were to make a sacrifice at your shrine and get 100 karma you'd get 25 free bonus karma
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Offline Zachariel

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Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 11:03:01 am »
Remember, with an additional measurable "karma" bulb,
there will be 4 bulbs all together, including vitae, mana and morale,
as Mickey proposed.
This might make the players chase after some digital points they can count,
instead of having fun.

Offline Greatest

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Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2012, 12:01:49 pm »
what game have you ever played where you do something that isn't to raise some number?  we work skills to improve them, we fight monsters so we get stronger, we get better armor to absorb more damage.  we do everything we do in a game so our numbers go up!

if the reason you're doing something isn't fun a player won't do it, if it is they will...its not mandatory, but with good bonuses people will use it.  the numbers aren't the issue, the rewards are.  people will grind for the goodies, its a scientific fact!  ;D
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2012, 01:15:24 pm »
Going with the multiple gawds and faith level... Faith shouldn't be in the skill list like the others--it should actually be a web, pulling towards and away from different gawds.

For example, if you have a good standing with the gawd of magic, then you'll probably have a poor standing with the gawd of strength.

This will prevent a player from being a messenger of all gawds--You can't just pray to all the gawds for all the benefits, you have to choose which two or three you want more than the rest.

If you've played Well of Souls, you can take a look at the magic web, each element has it's "Buddy" elements, "neutral" elements, and "enemy" elements. Likewise, a Gawd would have two others that don't mind you praying to the one, two that are disappointed, and one (or more) that get angry at you for it.
With only four or five, you can skip the buddy gawds.

Alternatively from the web, you can simply code different actions as effecting how much they like you, each gawd liking different things differently. The gawd of strength wouldn't like you using magic, whereas the gawd of magic wouldn't like you fighting with a sword, but both would slightly like using certain crafting skills.
Going with this course, you would have to have REALLY high numbers to change things, but the things that gawd reigns over would at the same time give you higher numbers than things they look upon and say "hey, that's kind of cool."

Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2012, 01:17:08 pm »
Also, getting good effects from a gawd should result in lowering how much they like you. Not necessarily in a "Oh I hate this guy for asking for my blessing," but more of "I've given him my blessing, if he wants more he can work for it."

Offline Mongo

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Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2012, 01:44:29 pm »
I think they should have a little bit more random of an assortment rather than a strict category.

For example, instead of

Gawd 1: 10% increased spell damage, 5% increased mana regen, [other spell-related thing]
Gawd 2: 5% increased movespeed, 10% increased crit damage, [other physical-related thing]

you could have effects from different categories (would make the gawds MUCH more interesting rather than "Mages pick Gawd 1, Warriors pick Gawd 2, etc"

Gawd 1: 5% increased mana regen, 5% increased carrying capacity, 1% chance on harvesting to get double yield
Gawd 2: 10% increased movespeed, 10% increased max mana, 5% chance when struck in melee combat to reflect 25% of the damage


They would have to be well thought out and balanced, obviously.. but mix it up a bit.
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 01:45:32 pm »
Also, completely unrelated, but why don't I have an edit button?
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Offline Mongo

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Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2012, 01:48:09 pm »
Yay for triple post, sorry.. but ALSO

It should take a pretty big time investment to gain 'reputation' with a gawd.. shouldn't be able to swap on a daily basis. Changing your beliefs should take a long time.
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Offline Greatest

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Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2012, 11:10:11 pm »
I was thinking you'd only get to worship 1, and if you change to another your previous 'karma'(or maybe half?) would become negative, sort of like the gawd being jealous that you gave so much to the other that you have to work off that debt before you gain any favor with him/her

Also, completely unrelated, but why don't I have an edit button?
>:( ??? it would be awesome if we had edit buttons, but you have to have the status 'elite member' to get an edit button and I have no clue how those things work.  I actually have more posts than several elite members and I became a senior member when I got my 250th post...
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2012, 11:24:35 pm »
Maybe elite member is based on your karma, not post count.
I was thinking you'd only get to worship 1, and if you change to another your previous 'karma'(or maybe half?) would become negative, sort of like the gawd being jealous that you gave so much to the other that you have to work off that debt before you gain any favor with him/her

This is a good idea.

Offline Zachariel

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Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2012, 11:46:07 pm »
The way you, Greatest, portray Gawds is as if they
were humans with serious emotional disorders who
like to play with petty quabbles and act like spoiled children.
As a coincidence, so does the christian Bible.

I imagine Gawds to be highly evolved in all mental
and emotional aspects, all-knowing and all-powerful.

Instead of creating agony for the player by having him
worry about his karma and Gawd relations all the time,
make the Gawds kind and welcoming to all who pray to
them and really be the higher power in any sense that
any player can turn to them at any time, depending on their
faith skill. It's like personal spiritual development for the
player character.

And people, please, don't just offer ideas and feedback
such as "i like it" or "i dislike it" without any deep explanation
on how this affects the game experience and relates with
other features of the game.
It's easy to think on one game feature at a time and for
whatever reason approve it, but see all the hundreds of pieces
working together to provide, first and foremost, FUN, not tedious
worship and karma counting.
See it from the players perspective, who above everything else like
managing house inventory, acquiring items, farming, mining, crafting
mixing potions, completing quests and participating guild wars,
has to manage his relations with Gawds, part of whom are always
pissed at the player for not worshiping them instead of the other one.

In case of RPGWO V4, all old V1-2-3 (and new) implementations should
be rethought and re-engineered, not just randomly approved and patched in.
RPGWO V4 is not about just new core code, where everything else works
just as it did in V1-2-3, it's about whole new game experience.

So whenever you propose something, first consider all the available options
and really think why any of them will be good for RPGWO and then explain
in depth how your suggestion affects gameplay and why the other
implementations of the feature are not as good, not just suggest something
out of emotional impulse or because you personally just like the idea,
without giving any explanation of why.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 12:01:20 am by Zachariel »

Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2012, 01:02:11 am »
Instead of creating agony for the player by having him
worry about his karma and Gawd relations all the time,
make the Gawds kind and welcoming to all who pray to
them and really be the higher power in any sense that
any player can turn to them at any time, depending on their
faith skill. It's like personal spiritual development for the
player character.

It's easy to think on one game feature at a time and for
whatever reason approve it, but see all the hundreds of pieces
working together to provide, first and foremost, FUN, not tedious
worship and karma counting.
I'm not saying Gawds would punish you if they hate you, it's just you can't get their blessing.

So, hey, you're down one optional benefit in the game. If you don't want to go through the trouble of getting it? Don't! It's as simple as that, you're hardly missing out on anything.

You're arguing that a player would have to worry about gawds getting mad at him for worshipping other gawds. Yes, I suggested they get "Angry" about it, but that's not something to worry about. They won't curse you, they just won't be as willing to give you blessings.

This leaves you having to make a choice. Do you want to worship the gawd who helps you farm easier more often, or the gawd who helps you mine easier more often?

As Mongo suggested, the gawds shouldn't be based off of one thing and one thing only--these shouldn't be the "Gawd of X," but rather, "Y, the Gawd"--they are conscious beings and have their own interests. Say Turinolunikas likes farming, swinging a flail, and bandaging up his allies. Those don't really have anything in common, but those would be what that gawd can help you with, since those are his hobbies. Gerianion, on the other hand, likes cooking, white magic, and masonry.

You'll choose your Gawd most likely based on one particular skill. If you want to be able to bandage people up with great skill, you'd worship T, for example.

Offline Greatest

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Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2012, 02:08:10 am »
I imagine Gawds to be highly evolved in all mental
and emotional aspects, all-knowing and all-powerful.
I didn't get past that line in your post...no matter what religion you look to in history you'll never find a 'god' that wasn't petty!  (I'll stick to classical mythology for these examples since they're what most people know)think of Jupiter's affairs and Juno's jealousy.  think of Aphrodites' affair with Hermes(spawning Hermaphroditus) while she was married to Hepheastus, think of any culture and the dieties they worship and point out 1 that isn't petty...and dare I even mention Pan?
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline yeahs

Re: Gawds, Prayers and Karma
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2012, 11:55:15 am »
Can you keep your posts simple with maybe bullet points of what you are suggesting. Its not necessary to make a whole page on your philosophies

 

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