Author Topic: Progressive world  (Read 4950 times)

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Offline Tokoshoran

Progressive world
« on: May 01, 2012, 06:23:58 pm »
I was doing some talking over Rebirth about the modern servers that used(?) to exist, and I got an idea.

People don't like starting with "Nothing" and right off the bat getting a bunch of high powered guns and junk, right? I certainly find the idea silly. But getting modern stuff later on, after doing a ton of stuff, would make sense.

This does bring into question stuff like guns vs bows, swords, and axes, but that's solved as follows: The modern (and future, if it goes that far) equipment wouldn't have its own skill! Instead, guns would be high leveled ranged weapons, grenades high level thrown weapons, etc.

Then, for machinery, in order to make the metals and stuff used in modern stuff, you would have to process them through higher-end medieval stuff.

Now, I understand, "High level people would have an unfair advantage over new people." Yes, that would exist, and although it already exists on pure medieval servers, it would also drive them to work for themselves, rather than to help the newbies, but for some people, it would be worth it.

Another problem I'm finding is that I, personally, can't think of what the modern equivelant of all the weapon types would be.

If you've got any suggestions to add on, or criticism to throw at this, go for it.

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Re: Progressive world
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2012, 09:05:50 pm »
lmao I like the idea, but don't think its going to happen.

who says people won't just buy the stuff to make the best stuff possible from the beginning?  you may need a high quality steel beam to make something, why not just buy it instead of making all the intermediate stuff to make 1 yourself?

also guns didn't replace bows, they replaced spears(and bayonet attached its still a spear).  if you think of old fashioned warfare, front line was spears/pikes, and they were covering the artillery(archers catapults ballistas trebuchets mangonels etc).  looking at it that way you'd have a lot of problems with which weapon goes to which skill...spear skill using rifles?  bow skill using rocket launchers?  throwing skill(catapult) using tanks?

it really doesn't fit...if there was a way to make a skill need another skill already learned before you can learn it(or even at a certain level) I could see this working, but theres no way to do that as far as I know.  still I like the idea.
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Progressive world
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2012, 09:23:36 pm »
We're not going by what they were a combination of, but rather, what they specifically are.

And even if you do go making combination items, perhaps they could require both skills, if that's possible.

You do bring up a good point on the bit about getting the higher grade stuff from other players, though. That said, however, what are the chances they'll be able to use it before they can actually make it? In the real world, you get people who know how to make metal giving it to people who know how to build with it, who build it for the people who haven't got a clue how to do anything with it.
The main point here is they can't use the gear themselves until they've got enough skill with them. Otherwise we'd see people banned left and right for giving new Mainland arrivals powerful armor and jewelery.

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Re: Progressive world
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2012, 10:51:56 pm »
In the real world, you get people who know how to make metal giving it to people who know how to build with it, who build it for the people who haven't got a clue how to do anything with it.
guess by that you mean mining company ripping up the ground to get ore, steel company refining it into steel, tool company making a tool of some type, person buying/using tool?...and yes thats what I meant in this situation, you don't have to go through all of it to get to the end point.  which is why(even though I like the idea) this will never work in RPGWO.  as soon as 1 person can make a type of item its going to spread like crazy, and go on from there, only difference is that only a few people will be able to make any money selling said items because noone else can make them. 

to go a step past what I said before, someone used to using a spear will have a better chance of properly using a rifle than someone who is used to using a bow, while that archer would have an easier time learning to use some type of launcher(especially a canister style launcher)...and thats why armies evolved the way they did, from mostly spearman(ancient infantry) to mostly rifleman(modern infantry).
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Greatest

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Re: Progressive world
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2012, 01:06:35 am »
no edit button so double post:

I thought of a work around, it requires active admins and would probably piss people off if they set up expecting 1 thing and things were different.  I'm going to outline this in a very broad way, but here it is:

start the world with maybe 2 skills available:
Hunting-would be basic attack skills that could be enhanced later basic weapons like pointed sticks and rocks
Gathering-basic crafter could gather basic things like sticks and fruit from trees

after a couple weeks the admin would add more skills to the game based on the first 2:
Warfare-uses hunting skills but adds armor so you have better defense
Farming-can gather more types of things from plants
Fishing-duh
FlintKnapping-able to make basic stone weapons
Tanner-able to use hides to make different types of leather armors and items

a little longer and game would evolve more, actual weapon styles would be added, more skills for making stuff, then add mining so that metals can be used.  once metals have been used for a while add more and more stuff...

like I said would take a dedicated admin, and a really good set up planned before the server was ever openned.  this could really screw someone up if they had the wrong skills for what they were planning when the skills were changed, or if they had to take a break from game and weren't around when skills were changed, but it would work for the basics...
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Progressive world
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2012, 01:22:50 am »
Well, I suppose you have a point there.

So, spears->aimed guns
Bows->arced projectiles

as soon as 1 person can make a type of item its going to spread like crazy, and go on from there, only difference is that only a few people will be able to make any money selling said items because noone else can make them.

That's just it, if they aren't going to be making money selling them, they'll have less incentive to. That, and by the point they get that far, most players will be able to start up on that skill anyways, wouldn't they?

Unless, of course, skills were made more expensive to encourage teamwork, but that brings into point the problem of not wanting to sell anything without money in turn.
Mostly what I'm seeing here is an encouragement of item trade. "Make this for me, and I'll give you these additional materials."


Guildwork. Players will be encouraged to work as a group, to help each other out. Yes, it would be hard to get it to work ideally, but if a guild doesn't work out, you could spread the word against them.

Alternatively, guilds could form unions; it's easier to go on strike from one group if they don't do work the right way, and possibly find another one to hire you.

start the world with maybe 2 skills available:
Hunting-would be basic attack skills that could be enhanced later basic weapons like pointed sticks and rocks
Gathering-basic crafter could gather basic things like sticks and fruit from trees

after a couple weeks the admin would add more skills to the game based on the first 2:
Warfare-uses hunting skills but adds armor so you have better defense
Farming-can gather more types of things from plants
Fishing-duh
FlintKnapping-able to make basic stone weapons
Tanner-able to use hides to make different types of leather armors and items

a little longer and game would evolve more, actual weapon styles would be added, more skills for making stuff, then add mining so that metals can be used.  once metals have been used for a while add more and more stuff...

like I said would take a dedicated admin, and a really good set up planned before the server was ever openned.  this could really screw someone up if they had the wrong skills for what they were planning when the skills were changed, or if they had to take a break from game and weren't around when skills were changed, but it would work for the basics...

Actually, in this sense, what you said before would make great sense. Based on what the players choose, a tree would open up before them. This idea would require an insane amount of scripting, I'm sure, but say they chose hunting at first. They get a package deal; all three defenses, unarmed, Thrown I, Blunt I, and Sharp I. Gatherers their own package.

This can be done by replacing the skill training windows with something that lets them purchase, say, a 'potion' that would permanently teach them the skills, at the cost of skill points.

Covering the whole field will unlock joint packages that would either let them do things others wouldn't, or easier than others would (they can use different tools that make it easier).

Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Progressive world
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2012, 11:30:53 am »
On the topic of lacking edits...

I realize that the second option would really veer away from RPGWO.

Going with Guilds would probably be the fairest method.

Also: Daggers->Tasers. The kind you have to be up to a person to use.

Offline Greatest

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Re: Progressive world
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2012, 11:22:33 pm »
Also: Daggers->Tasers. The kind you have to be up to a person to use.
that would be a stun gun, and not so sure about that, people still use knives to mug others...for some reason when I think of people using daggers I think of thief style chars, so that leads me to muggings.  like I said there really would be alot of stuff to work out for a server like that, and I doubt anyone is willing to put in that much work. 
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Progressive world
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2012, 12:04:51 am »
Also: Daggers->Tasers. The kind you have to be up to a person to use.
like I said there really would be alot of stuff to work out for a server like that, and I doubt anyone is willing to put in that much work. 

Maybe not, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be neat. We're just fleshing out ideas, so that if somebody wants even part of what's been thought up here, it's here for that.

Anyways, it's true that daggers and swords are still the same thing today as they were back then, but that means there wouldn't be upgrades for the players that use them. I suppose it's possible to go Gunblade on it; Slapping on a trigger that when pulled causes a snap powerful enough to vibrate the entire sword is something that probably would be possible, just hasn't been done, but would that work for daggers? By the time you get it in them, that's it, there's not much room for the trigger pull to add damage.

An alternative would be a portable "lighter" blade, which would be 'repaired' by using a special oil, and an electrocuted blade which uses a battery... But those would mess with the balance on them, and force elemental use. Could that be bypassed by adding two quality percentages, "Charge" and "Quality" seperate? Quality lowering with any use, and Charge only when it's 'on' (use hand on it). I don't know if the engine supports that, but it would let it work.

Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Progressive world
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2012, 12:05:30 am »
Ugh, I confused myself there.

Electricity can be used to generate intense heat, and it's not a FIRE blade, just a heated one. So both use a battery.

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Re: Progressive world
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2012, 12:59:10 am »
Ugh, I confused myself there.
yea I was like wtf halfway through that...

swords give way to pistols...sidearms used when your main weapon isn't appropriate, close quaters, hallways...better usage would be an smg, but those came later.

where would you get pepper-spray in your scenario? 

I know most modern severs I played use stun guns as an unarmed weapon->I've always thought unarmed weapons were silly and have often suggested instead using belts like in martial arts, higher belt more damage, even have belts for different styles like the weapon difference in other skills(faster lower damage, slower bigger damage) but it always seems to get ignored when I offer it.  example(randomly inserted numbers just to illustrate idea):
white belt in karate 0.5 speed 5-10 damage
white belt in judo 2 speed 15-20 damage
white belt in Muay Thai 1 speed 8-12 damage
black belt in karate 0.5 speed 30-35 damage
black belt in Judo 2 speed 45-50 damage
black belt in Muay Thai 1 speed 35-40 damage

so karate would be your fast attack 'weapon' with low damage, judo would be your slow 'weapon' with high damage, and Muay Thai would be your base...could completely change those, or add in more, but the good part is you only need 1 image for each color since its just a belt, and the style doesn't need any visual representation...
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Novibear

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Re: Progressive world
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2012, 09:14:32 am »
Yeah unarmed seems odd especially because you equip a weapon. maybe renaming that skill i think Fisticuffs was a skill
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Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Progressive world
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2012, 11:54:17 am »
I understand the whole thing about side-arm daggers getting replaced by pistols, but do we seriously want to run through he medieval stage used to melee combat and all of a sudden start shooting from a range?

If that is how you want it to go, then the Spears should be the longer range guns, swords the medium range, and daggers would be the short range guns. An axe would come to scattershot (They were made for chopping; the weight of the strike is what drives it through--the number of the bits drives it through the enemy).

I don't like the idea of going from melee to range, though. If you had Bows and Crossbows as two separate skills, you could have them evolve into Launchers and Guns respectively, themselves. Guns would work in categories as the modern "Crossbows."

Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Progressive world
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2012, 11:52:02 pm »
Alright, uh. Let's see if I can recap what we've discussed.

Weapons A:
  • Bow->Launchers
  • Crossbow->(we actually didn't discuss this!)
  • Dagger->Short range guns (SMGs?)
  • Sword->Medium range guns (Pistols?)
  • Axe->Scatterguns
  • Mace->Undecided (Probably crowbars or something)
  • Spear->Longer range weapons (Semi-Auto AR)
  • Staff->Undecided
  • Flail->Undecided
  • Scythe->Undecided
  • Throwing->Grenades

Weapons B:
  • Bow->Launched weapons
  • Crossbow->Aimed weapons
  • Throwing->Grenades
  • Everything else->Potential modern adaptations

Item Construction:
    • Guilds
    • Unions
    • Solo Trade/Theft

Skill advancement:
    • Trees
    • Skill packages
  • New skills available over time by Admins

...We really seem to have been stuck on weapons this whole time. How about the trade skills? Those seem to die off really fast.

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Re: Progressive world
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2012, 01:02:49 am »
easiest way to handle which weapon goes where: melee combat, and ranged combat.  it kills the premise I pointed out earlier, but allows people to choose melee or ranged and as technology progresses means they don't have to change skills.

early crafting is going to be hard to figure out.  you have gatherers but thats only gathering materials, not actually making anything.  after that you can split it to 3 groups(I have no clue what to name 1):
flintknapping which would allow for stones to be turned into tools and weapons
cooking cooking fud ofcourse
<other> working with goods like leather and wood to make helpful items

flintknapping would then lead to masonry or smithing
cooking doesn't really change you'd just get more stuff you can make I guess...
<other> could lead to carpentry and tailoring

in a server like this I don't see a way to incorporate magic...or most types of potions.  I guess cooking could lead to potion making at some point so that cooks are completely left out, but that adds a weird turn.
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Novibear

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Re: Progressive world
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2012, 10:04:37 am »
I remember some of the weapons skills in Zero hour being
Pistol
SMG
Shotgun
Assualt
Heavy weapons - Rocket launchers
Street combat(fighting) chains, pipes, etc
NINja katanas and what not

Then there was Sabotage with blowing up houses with C4 and stuff I liek that because You could Blow up a a house and take their stuff
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Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Progressive world
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2012, 12:39:25 pm »
Actually, I've had a few thoughts since I last posted.

In the V4 discussion, Mickey is talking about starting all skills off as already trained, just at level 0. If all skills were made to cost the same number of skill points and made mandatory, with just enough points to have it all, with all attributes forced to start at 10... Sure, a player would have to start training anew for the guns when they reach there, but the daggers and swords at that point wouldn't continue any further until you reach "Future". The way I've worded this, it can be done without V4.

That said, I still like the progressive skill packets. Every five points, perhaps, is enough for a packet, and you start with ten points. In order to 'use' the <device> to learn later things you simply need to have the previous skill packet.

  • Gathering
    • Earthworks (Smithing, Masonry)
    • Foodworks (Cooking, Fishing)
    • Houseworks (Carpentry, Tailoring)
  • Hunting
    • Tracking (Sneak, Scan)
    • Trapping (Traps; Earthworker has to make them)
    • Taming1 (Tame, Charm2)
  • Scholary3 (Writing)
    • Arcane (Read ancient, Mana conversion)
    • Restoration (White Magic4, First Aid)
    • Archeology (Blue Magic4,5)
    • Destruction (Black Magic4, Yellow Magic4,6)
(Sorry about the extra dot under Hunting and Gathering, list wouldn't work without that)

1Taming would work better on V2, due to shared exp.
2Charm would either cause an enemy to stop attacking, or act as a temporary tame. Might work passively to avoid agros automatically attacking.
3Scholary would NOT be something to get right off the bat, so it's probably best to exclude it until players have started characters up. Once you've got other characters to back it up, a new character can start with it to be an efficient scholar (Can't defend themselves, but good support).
4Magic would have limited range. Instead of using runes, magic can use readied resources. Rulers, levels, etc. Rather than a particular item being "Self" and another "Other,"
5Blue magic would be purely for the purpose of reinforcing objects, not for making golems; for example, cast on stone wall for Reinforced Stone Wall (tearing it down turns it into Stone Wall). Higher levels have to be cast on lower-level reinforced walls.
6Yellow Magic would be timed area-effect. In essense, this is stuff like explosives. Run up to an area, cast the spell to conjure a TNT, run away before it blows up. This would damage walls that don't have a certain level of reinforcement.

"Magic" could easily have alternate names.

Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Progressive world
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2012, 12:41:48 pm »
Oh, I should note that it would be higher level "Yellow" magic that actually damages walls. As for why I used Yellow, well, it was the only unused primary color (White, Black, Blue, and Red were all already used).

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Re: Progressive world
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2012, 11:58:13 pm »
magic doesn't really seem to fit in a world thats going to end up with guns and nukes...
why does Fox keep cancelling good shows?

Offline Tokoshoran

Re: Progressive world
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2012, 10:45:30 am »
There's a difference between modern/futuristic, and progressive from Medieval.

Besides, what I stated before is that it's not magic, just the scholars doing stuff other people don't know how to. That's what magic is said to be, right? Science that other people don't understand?

White Magic would be using the raw tools to fix a person up, rather than premade bandages.
Blue Magic is just architectural knowledge, reinforcing or building new things from what others wouldn't think you could.
Black Magic is using anatomical knowledge to harm the enemy with ease.
Red Magic, I can't think of a way to implement, so I excluded it intentionally.
Yellow Magic, as I stated above, is the knowledge over high powered explosives. Heck, it could potentially be made to produce makeshift grenades, even.

 

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